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Answered All drivers are off by the exact same amount

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by wickemu, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    I've been in the process of calibrating my printer and I've discovered that every motor of my printer is off by the exact same amount. That seems impossible to be coincidental, so I was wondering if it could be the symptom of a larger issue before I just go and adjust the firmware.

    To be clear, I've determined this by testing X Y and Z using the XYZ 20mm cube and testing the extruder using a marked line on the filament. Every motor appears to be producing ~92.5% of what it's supposed to.

    This is the Robo R1 with threaded rods.
     
  2. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Have you calibrated the stepper drivers? That is the correct approach normally. The step sizes in the firmware are mathematical and don't vary :) If you need 100 steps/mm then you need 100 steps. It may not be taking 100 steps (but that is the stepper driver or stepper motor misbehaving, maybe even the RAMPS board itself).
     
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  3. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    The steps are mechanically based and it is not going to vary. Gear ratios and all that ...
     
  4. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    So if the firmware says that the default steps per unit are 80, 80, 2560, and 723.38, I should just multiply those by the inverse and make them about 86.4, 86.4, 2765, 781.25? And that's all there is to it?
     
  5. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    No.
    Those numbers are calculated from the hardware. Except for the extruder steps (which are sort-of bogus) there should be no reason to alter them. You are accounting for an electronic problem in software... not a great idea. But if that is the way you want to go, then you are correct. Problem is that if you alter the firmware for this it is not likely going to stick. Whatever is driving your numbers off (bad stepper driver for example) will likely only get worse.

    The eSteps is generally crap because on the R1 series robo seems to have pulled that number out of their pants, but the X, Y and Z steps are correctly calculated for the hardware in the machine.
     
  6. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    Ok, so I'm not entirely sure what to change then. Is it another firmware configuration, something with the EEPROM, or just within my preferred slicer?
     
  7. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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  8. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    So you need to look at the electrical side and see what is misbehaving. Are all axis out of kilter?

    My suspicion is that you are not getting the signal to the stepper correctly. When the firmware calls for (as an example) 100 steps ... it (the stepper) is getting a signal for 90. It really needs 100, but .... only gets told 90. This is not a firmware problem because it asked for 100 steps.

    You get what I mean? If you try to fix that in the firmware by having it ask for more steps then if the electronics degrades further you are still not going to be working correctly.

    Of all those numbers you posted the only one that is total garbage out of the box is the extruder steps/mm that number is not correct and extruder calibration is a good idea.
     
  9. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    This is all way, way over my head. It's almost entirely gibberish. And I don't have the tools, the knowledge, or the steady hand to brave any manual adjustments to the chips/board. There's really no other way to fix the motors being off?
     
  10. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    You can approach it however you want. Tweak the firmware or adjust the stepper drivers (or just replace them outright -- I don't calibrate them either since they are so cheap).

    I just want you to understand that those numbers are mechanical and if you change them today you will likely be changing them again at some point because the mechanical bits are not off :)
     
  11. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    I guess I'm still confused more than anything. All I know is that looking at the sticky about adjusting the stepper motors just makes my head hurt - I think there's approximately 0% chance that I'm going to dive in and figure that out. Certainly not if it can be mitigated by making small changes to the firmware (even if I have to do a very simple firmware recalibration every month or so to keep it accurate).

    Are you saying that the reason that they'd be uniformly incorrect is because the little driver chip thingy is degraded and that another solution would be to buy a new one outright which will theoretically work 100% accurately out of the box? If it's as simple as pulling out that chip and putting a new on in its place then I'd potentially be up for that - depending on the definition of "cheap" and being able to easily figure out which chip I'm supposed to get.
     
  12. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    https://www.amazon.com/Elegoo-Stepstick-Stepper-Printer-Robotics/dp/B01GJJGRF2

    Your call.
    If you rather calculate and tweak the firmware -- have at it. Just bear in mind that those are not numbers that should change. They are what they are from an engineering stand-point.

    If anything is misbehaving it is the electrical side.

    However, I always start troubleshooting that from the cheapest parts first :)
     
  13. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    The fact you feel all of the axis are off lends me to suspect that the RAMPS board itself might be at fault, but I would start with the drivers. They are so cheap and easy to swap out... if that doesn't solve it then move on to the next most expensive part.

    Or play with the firmware :) Just realize that if you go that route things will likely drift again. Once electronics start to degrade they usually keep going. You are the one who has to fix it so you need to pick which way you would rather go.
     
  14. wickemu

    wickemu Member

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    What's the consequence of just adjusting the firmware? Does it damage (or accelerate damage to) the motors or drivers? or is it more just a matter of fixing the symptom while ignoring the real problem? For that matter, does the problem have other symptoms than just what this adjustment corrects?

    I certainly want to do it right, but I also don't want to risk causing even bigger problems by trying to make adjustments to the board. If fixing it is really as simple as just popping off those drivers and putting in the new ones, that would potentially be worth considering - though I still don't understand why all of the drivers would have the exact same error amount.
     
  15. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    No.

    Yes, exactly :)

    That is the reason I said I suspect something a bit more -- like the RAMPS board itself since it is very unusual for all of the drivers to be exactly the same amount off. You can try jotting down the original firmware settings (or copy and then comment out the original line and just leave your changed one) so that you have a way to roll back if you ever need to. And see what effect you get my tweaking the firmware.
     
  16. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    I just can't imagine that changing the firmware is a permanent fix for this.
    But it might be worth doing until the problem gets worse.

    The only way this could be mechanical was if your pulleys or belt were the wrong size (wrong mumber of teeth, etc.) but those are standard GT2 belts and pulleys...same for the steppers, they are all standard ones (likely 200 steps/rev if memory serves)
     
  17. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    just turn the silver pot (has Philips head slots cut in it) up 1/4 turn on those chips. With the power off. Turn back on and test...does that fix your issue ?

    If yes order stepper drivers

    If no order stepper drivers and ramps
     
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  18. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    If it changes things at all I'd consider new ones :)
     
  19. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Indeed :D should be no change at all if good. I agree with @mark tomlinson that there may be a larger problem so I'd suggest buying one of these style kits that has everything in it :

    https://www.amazon.com/kuman-Printe...505908980&sr=8-1&keywords=kuman+Ramps+1.4+kit

    because then you'll be covered. Shop around for the one you like the best, read the reviews and what not. That is an example not a "buy this one" but it has the arduino, a ramps board, stepper drivers...all the bits under the hood.

    If your machine is a R1 your good to go with that kit if its a R1+ then you'll need to follow this guide :
    http://community.robo3d.com/index.p...and-rewiring-to-make-generic-ramps-work.8356/

    which is easy enough, alot of people have done. Dont waste your money on the robo board kit...its like 80 bucks :D and the conversion is seriously very easy.

    Keep us posted on what you find.
     

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