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auto leveling

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by Lance Weston, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    My auto leveling always makes a thinner traces in one spot on my bed. I can manually level the bed to get the same trace width on all spots on the bed. I would like to fake out the autoleveling. Can I use a G36 command followed by a G28 x0 y0. Will this leave a the bed in the average Z position from the autoleveling? Then my manual leveling will kick in.
     
  2. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    What printer exactly are you using ?
     
  3. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    I am using the Robo R2, about six months old. The IR board is very repeatable, but since it looks through the bed covering to the aluminum below it dependent on the consistency of the bed covering leaving an unusable auto level for me. Not using auto level the z axis switch is probably repeatable to .003" with a multiplier of about 4 taking into account the lever so I am guessing that I have a repeatability of about .012" or .3 mm. With a 9 point sample I am thinking the IR board will have a .05 mm repeatability. I only have a .2 mm initial trace and .05 mm is probably the minimum repeatability I need for hands free. For now I have to adjust the bed screws on every print.
     
  4. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Ok I moved your thread from th3 R1 section to the R2 section. To disable autolevel you need to remove the G36 fro. The start up script in both your slicer and octoprint. Replace it with a G28.

    This will home the axis and print. Make sure your bed is leveled as best you can.
     
  5. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    This does not work, as previously stated the z axis switch is not repeatable enough and I have to play with the bed leveling screws every print to get the right height. Thus my question "Can I use a G36 command followed by a G28 x0 y0. Will this leave a the bed in the average Z position from the auto leveling? Then my manual leveling will kick in." I have ordered a z axis limit switch that should be repeatable to .05mm but I hate to modify the printer when the IR board should be able to do the job without auto leveling.
     
  6. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    You’d be the first this doesn’t work for and can’t honestly answer the G36 question as I don’t use it. Hopefully someone will come along that can answer for you.
     
  7. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    I also don't use G36, for reasons I do not want to repeat here. I am not sure what you are asking for works, Homing (G28) only happens at one location on the X/Y/Z planes. Are you saying that if you read the same spot 10 times under the same conditions you have 10 different dimensions for Z?
     
  8. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    Hi Geof,
    I am printing parts without a basket. The parts are wide and flat against the bed. It is critical that they look good on the bed surface. The 45 degree traces have to be exactly at the right height to look perfect. A .05 mm change can be the difference between looking good and not. Too close to the bed and the edges squish out, too far and you can see slight gaps in the 45 degree traces. This probably requires more precision than most care about.
    Lance
     
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  9. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    A picture might help us visualize it :)

    There is always the idea of printing it in a different orientation (just a wild stab in the dark since it is not yet clear what you are having troubles with)
     
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  10. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    Hi Geof,

    Have tried every orientation. Problem is simple, I need an absolutely smooth surface printed on the bed. I can get this by manually adjusting the bed screws each print using a 5 line skirt to set height. I would like to not have to set the height manually to compensate for the repeatability of the z axis switch being not accurate enough.

    Lance
     
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  11. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    Hi Geof,

    Attached is a picture of an unacceptable output. this has to be thrown out. The height difference between good and bad is very small.

    Lance
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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  13. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    I was hoping that after doing a G36 the bed would be left in the same z position each time. Then executing a G28 x0 y0 would home without disturbing the z position. This would give me an exact z position start for every print, without executing the auto level. I would like to not have to screw with the bed leveling screws on every print to get the right height. The z axis switch is not repeatable enough for my needs.
     
  14. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    There are many here that do not use Auto-leveling at all (G29 or G36). once all the points measured on the bed are compensated for the bed plane does not change even with countless removals and replacements of the bed itself. There is simply no need to keep messing with the four leveling screws at the corners.

    My own print startup code only includes G28 to home the device. Even though the IR does not read consistently across the entire bed, I don't care because I am not measuring across the entire bed, just in one single spot. If you bed is trammed correctly there is no need to measure anywhere but one location.

    To be honest, what you are asking is solved by using MESH leveling of some kind or another (either MESH {deprecated} or UBL) Once the exact plane of the bed is determined and the appropriate points measured and edited, there is no need to ever (actually ever is not the right word, but almost never sounds stupid) remeasure anything but where Home is.

    And even though you quoted my post you didn't actually answer my question.
     
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  15. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    While it is soooo 2013 (or earlier) I stand by manual leveling as my approach :)
    If you need that much precision then manual leveling is the only way to go.

    MESH is sort-of an automated approach to getting the same corrections as you would with manual leveling so it is really good.

    Tolerances on the consumer 3D printer machines is not like a lathe or CNC ... not by a factor of several decimal points.
     
  16. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    Hi Geof,
    My bed is perfectly leveled, that is not my problem. My problem is height keeps changing. I adjust the bed leveling screws to adjust height. Yes measuring at one spot and setting z with the IR should be fine, I do not know how to do this. I think the IR board would be more accurate than the z axis switch. The z axis switch is not repeatable enough for my height. I am doing my best to answer your questions, I do not know which one I did not answer.
    Lance
     
  17. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Mark and Waldo here... Geof is not the one responding today :) Probably off having a weekend

    What you are describing is the Z offset it sounds like. The bed leveling screws adjust the physical height, the Z offset wizard and fine tuning wizard deal with the Z offset. If the bed is level then it is repeatable :) If you are having issues with repeatability then it is not level. You may have a defective switch since even my 3 R1 units (and the newer C2) are repeatable to within fractions of a millimeter for Z offset. When I get it set correctly it will always be the same and so are the layer heights. Those are all using identical $3 limit switches too :)
     
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  18. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Bear in mind that when we talk about a level bed we do NOT mean "level" with the world. We mean it is trammed (so that the gap between the extruder nozzle and the bed is the same across the entire surface of the bed).

    Same terminology used on the CNC machines and we really should use it for 3D printers, but folks just started using "leveling" to mean "trammed"
     
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  19. Lance Weston

    Lance Weston Active Member

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    Hi Mark,

    My description is not printer speak and I see that I was causing confusion. I will try and follow common usage, I am new at this. My Z offset is variable. A fraction of a millimeter is nowhere close to what I need. I need .05 mm or better, probably better, my initial layer is .2 mm. Typically for z offset correction I move each of the four leveling screws less than 1/16 of a turn during my skirt. There is no reason why the IR board can't give me a more repeatable z offset than the z endstop switch. I have found during my testing that when using the circles to fine tune z offset that even though the circle varies in z height over the length of the circle, circle to circle it is identical. I was hoping that an average z height was applied during a G36 command, then a G28 x0 y0 would not disturb that z height. A nine sample average would reduce any repeatability error. I see nothing inherent in the printer that limits the z height repeatability that firmware could not solve.

    I have also ordered a limit switch that should be .05 mm or better. I was hoping that I would not have to modify the printer as that area is not easy to work in.

    Manually adjusting each print will never give me the repeatability of result that a well tuned automated system will.
     
  20. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    If you are looking for better than fractional measurements, then 3D printing is not the correct solution for your required outcome. It will never come straight off an FDM technology printer with micron specific tolerances. If that is what you are trying to achieve.

    Just a few variables you haven't even mentioned; All plastics expand when heated and shrink when cooled. No matter which one you use, since a 3D printer has to heat to past Tg temperatures (glass transition) and then cool it to ambient temperatures there is always going to be tolerances in the tenths of a millimeter, not hundredths. Then there is tolerances within the linear movement mechanics, not everything is in whole stepper steps and microsteps are undefined mechanically. They are just an electrical division of the required voltage to move one step. You cannot rely on microsteps being accurate to micron tolerances. There is no feedback loop to verify the actual movement you asked for is the movement delivered. Then there is backlash that you cannot control. If you need that kind of accuracy you will need to spend much more than $1500 for a printer, and don't expect any other printer in the consumer space to provide any better tolerances that what I am telling you now. If you want to spend $100K plus then you can get 3D printers that can have tolerance accuracy approaching what you are asking for.

    To be honest @mark tomlinson hinted at the real solution, CNC a chunk of plastic to the sizes and shapes you need.
     
    #20 WheresWaldo, Dec 16, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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