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Prometheus System coming to Kickstarter to give dual color extrusion with single hotend

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by danzca6, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. regor

    regor Member

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    Trying to set up Cura Ver 2.1.3 for the robo r1. I see no real way of setting up the parameters for the Robo R1, like build area etc. Is there a different version that I should be using for the Prometheus and the Robo R1?
     
  2. RP Iron Man

    RP Iron Man Member

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    @regor

    You should not need to set up any parameters other than those directly related to slicing the model. We use the CURA slicing engine that is built into Repetier Host (so it is just the slicer, not the complete host program).

    It is much easier to just use the CURA slicer :)

    Cheers,
    Eric
     
  3. daniel871

    daniel871 Well-Known Member

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    This same stipulation applies to literally every single other multiple-extrusion system already on the market (or hell, any 3d printer in general that isn't plagued by quality-control issues).

    There really isn't anything offered on the mechanical side of this product that hasn't been done before in various designs on Thingiverse and Youmagine (ranging from a simple push-to-connect Wye-connector--in single and double flavors for supporting up to 4 filaments, to 3d printed solutions that are even bulkier than the kickstarter). All that really ever changes is the choice in hotend or the extruder cold-end configuration. The Wye setup is generally almost always the same.

    All that's being done is someone is offering to sell the parts to save hobbyists a small amount of time on gathering the parts and assembling them, possibly with some guidance on how to setup your slicer (possibly not since the dialing in will have to depend on the end-user's printer).
     
  4. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    @daniel871 not exactly sure what your getting at but it comes off insulting. If the system doesn't interest you or you dont have questions about how it works etc it would be best to not voice/ramble opinions.
     
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  5. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Well, that and they have tested it and can assure you it works.
    Also the quality can be guessed at by examining past products (and most are well happy with the Prometheus).

    But yes, there is nothing earth-shatteringly new here in terms of tech, but most folks would (I think) prefer to buy a kit than home brew it.
     
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  6. daniel871

    daniel871 Well-Known Member

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    The system as presented doesn't seem to have much place in the Robo3D R1 forum given the stock controller setup of the current printer.

    Nobody that owns the current printer iteration is going to be able to perform an installation of this system (or any other system that has been designed and shared) without completely removing the stock controller board and replacing it with a generic Arduino Mega/Ramps combination (and going through the firmware hoops to make that work properly).

    Basically, zero consideration for the baseline audience on these forums has been made. Why shouldn't I be blunt about pointing out the various ways this system will not work on the Robo3D printer system (to say nothing of the various other 3d printers out there that run the gamut of open-source to closed-source hybrid hardware/firmware combinations)?

    It's just bad marketing, but it should still be pointed out (similar to a lot of the marketing complaints posted about Robo3D directly on this very forum by a lot of posters over the last couple years--if the actual company this forum is for is not exempt, why should a 3rd party get a free pass?).

    As for whether this reads as insulting: Stop projecting.

    What printer(s) have they tested it on?

    All we see are end-product prints and close-cropped time-lapses, and a few posted reviews on Youtube by people whose nearly full-time job is tinkering with 3d printers (read: not your average hobbyist, most of whom test the system on their custom 3d printer builds rather than on the units they have reviewed).

    A non-Robo3D example: the many, many hobbyists that picked up the entry-level Wanhao/Monoprice i3 thanks to threads on Reddit and other places (the #2 best-selling printer on Amazon.com after the Flashforge Creator Pro) will not be able to use this system either (the Flashforge Creator Pro already has a properly functioning dual extruder system). Yet the kickstarter is getting shared in discussion groups for the Wanhao/Monoprice i3 as if it can even be used on that printer (the Melzi board those printers use cannot support multiple extruder motors).
     
  7. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    @daniel871 I get that there are aspects of this system that ring familiar to other attempts. Shoot I didn't get any love from the E3D forum when I brought this product up. I knew that before I posted there :), but got a lot of "That's just like the Cyclops" or "I've seen someone working on this or that". I don't see it that way. For me, I see this as a full system. Taking what others have attempted before and failed at it working, not being adopted in mass market, not being repeatable and reliable, and Eric's team has taken everything to the next level learning from where others have failed and succeeded. A working, tested, system that delivers out of the box functionality with the exception of a mounting solutions for the various printers. That's where the users will need to get creative and won't be hard for most printers to design. But the hard work has been done. Will it be the end all? No. It will continue to be refined, duplicated, and so on. Eric has already made mention that this has the potential to eventually be offered as a more universal system so you can use it with other quality hot ends in the future. Obviously he has an invested interest in getting it to work with their own hotend for the initial offering. And from what I have heard, it is a very high quality hotend tried and true over the past couple years. I think an example of how this system has innovation over others is the design of the Profeeder precision tube going into the hotend has a lot of the "magic sauce" that I haven't seen elsewhere. Even Tom mentions how it is really a key for getting this system to work by the way it will help prevent deforming the filament and allow smooth operation of the feeding of the filament to the hotend. Shoot I can see this evolving into 3 or 4 feeds instead of the two there now. The other things I have seen on Thingiverse and the like don't seem to have ever worked with great precision or repeatability not to mention "mass" produced for consumers like this. It's the next step in dual extrusion. There will be others. Maybe Eric's team will take the step after that or maybe some other innovator will take it to the next level. This kickstarter is just getting the product to the wild west of 3d printer users out there to see where it will need to go from here.

    I don't want to come off as a Prometheus fan boy or anything here. I just want to give credit to where credit is due with this product. Eric's team has done something here that is worth applauding. It's a great step forward to making dual extrusion more approachable and reliable for users both casual and advanced.

    Dual extrusion has always been something I have just seen as too much effort for very little return. Too many variables and calibrations to get it just right with multiple hotends and then the electronics needed and so on. To many compromises, maintenance, cost, and time. I'd much rather just get a paintbrush if I wanted multiple colors. Heck I even thought about using the sharpie method for changing filament colors on the fly. But then you get thinking about the use of multiple filament types during a print and dual extrusion gets interesting, very interesting. Still a lot of variables and cost to entry for a hobbyist with what is even available on the market today. Then you look at a system like this and see how things just got simpler and more approachable to taking that step for a hobbyist to get into dual extrusion. The next step and an ever evolving technology.
     
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  8. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with this. @Geof has already proven this to be an inexpensive and straight forward conversion for those interested in a thread awhile back. R1+ Ramps converted to a generic Ramps is very doable and without any firmware changes. I run the firmware used on the R1+ with my old R1 with the leadscrew upgrade. You point out a good limitation and something that R1+ users will need to consider, but by no means show stoppers.

    http://community.robo3d.com/index.p...and-rewiring-to-make-generic-ramps-work.8356/
     
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  9. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Every R1 and previous has the generic ramps board with the open extruder slot. yes you'll have to activate it in the firmware. You also have to adjust firmware for any mod. Which is what this is...a MOD. If you arnt comfortable with modding your machine then no this isn't for you.

    if you have an R1+ like I do then yes, you will have to put in a generic ramps...which I did and have a thread to walk anybody through it that may want and am here to help any ROBO user that has issues. Then you can mod you machine with the promethius system.

    ...I could honestly care less what printers they use the system on because what works for their machine most likely wont work with my robo which in turn wont work for my sigma, or the home built, or the ditto. I'd rather do a mounting set up for each machine based of my needs.

    They arnt kickstarting a "bolt on" kit.
     
  10. regor

    regor Member

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    OK! My problem is I have always used Simplyfied 3d. I just installed MatterControl and see an option for a slicer. If I select cura engine will this give me the control I need for the Prometheus? I am a kickstarter backer for the whole set up and trying to figure out how I will be able to make it work. Do you also need special coding to create a part with multiple colors or material? Lastly, can this also print flexible filament, for I've always heard bowden set ups aren't very good for flexibles.
     
  11. RP Iron Man

    RP Iron Man Member

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    @regor Yes, if you select Cura engine you will have all of the control you need :)

    Most of the multi-filament prints you see on the campaign were created by talented designers on Thingiverse. You can find many dual color objects on Thingiverse that you can print. You can also design your own parts for dual extrusion if you have access to CAD software. (I easily designed the composite wrench that you see on the campaign page).

    In terms of flexible filaments, I have printed with Taulman PCTPE (flexible Nylon) with great results! I have not tried Ninjaflex yet with The Prometheus System. Keep in mind that it is a bowden system, so I would recommend using semi-flexible filaments for easier printing.

    Cheers,
    Eric
     
  12. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    OK...if tip of nozzle to top of Profeeder is around 13cm then I think we will be fine. The profeeder looks so much bigger for some reason in the pictures. Once you remove the Greg's Wade and then attach the Prometheus V2 with a quick release groove mount, the height of the profeeder should be within a few millimeters of the top of the large gear on the greg's wade. So this will work on the Robo better than I originally thought. Thanks @RP Iron Man for the dimensions. And at only around 65g of moving mass, that will work just fine. At least that is what I am seeing doing some sketches.

    So the only modification you will need to look at doing is some straight forward firmware changes, possibly a new standard RAMPS 1.4 board for R1+ users (~$10), maybe another A4988 stepper driver for non-R1+ users(~$2), printing of a proper groove plate, some copy and paste of gcode, and mounting the two extruders outside of the Robo cover. I see the mounting of the motors should work nicely on each side of the cover and if you have couple of the stock filament holders (one on each side in the back) it should allow for a nice feed into those extruders. The model to print a new stock spool holder for the second is on Thingiverse. Or do some other custom mount. The slot on top should be plenty big to support a couple PTFE tubes. Bing, bang, boom you're done.

    Both the full system and the upgrade early birds are gone. Now you will have to pay about $23-30 US more for the next batch.

    Eric, what is the retail going to be on these? Is that something you can share at this time?
     
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  13. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    So technically guys if we can get enough folks here interested in an order to buy the 10 pack, then we all save about $37 each for the full system now that the individual early bird priced units are gone. Just a thought.
     
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  14. RP Iron Man

    RP Iron Man Member

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    @danzca6

    We have not set the retail rate for post-Kickstarter, but it will be noticeably higher than the price of the Kickstarter rewards. I would recommend backing the campaign for the discounted price!

    Cheers,
    Eric
     
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  15. regor

    regor Member

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    Any chance of getting the motor and bowden device dimensions? Trying to set up a mount for the Robo. I want it fed straight down to avoid any bends from spool to extruder. I find mounting it to the side creates too many bends and I want to be able to remove my Robo top without motors hanging off it, just simple plug and print.
     
  16. Mike Kelly

    Mike Kelly Volunteer

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  17. RP Iron Man

    RP Iron Man Member

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    @regor Would an STL of the extruder assembly be enough? I currently do not have dimensioned drawings of all of the components. but an STL export would be easy for me to do.

    @Mike Kelly Switching filaments only adds a few seconds to each layer so it is not too much of an issue. As for dissimilar filaments, you are right in that they need to have similar printing temperatures. It would be difficult to print Polycarbonate and PLA through the same nozzle.
     
  18. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    Eric

    I'd the profeeder going to be injection molded or 3d printed for the production version?
     
  19. RP Iron Man

    RP Iron Man Member

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    @danzca6 The plastic body of the ProFeeder is a very simple part that is easy to print. It will be 3D printed from Nylon Alloy 910 unless I can justify the investment for injection moulding. Keep in mind that the plastic body of the ProFeeder is just to direct the 2 extruder feeds into the KETRON HPV PEEK Guide that leads into the hot end. The PEEK Filament Guide is the really critical component here and it will be CNC machined.
     
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  20. regor

    regor Member

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    An STL of the extruder assembly would be a good start for me. Thanks!
     

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