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Robo3D R1 plus, 50 microns or less?

Discussion in 'Mods and Upgrades' started by FootCreamAristocrat, Oct 30, 2015.

  1. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    Hello,
    I have few questions regarding the Robo3d R1 plus:
    1. Are there people here who print successfully and reliably PLA in 50 microns or better layer resolution?
    (I searched "50 micron" in the forum search and didn't see any clear answer)

    2. What modifications are required to achieve 50 micron printing, and their estimated costs in addition to the printer itself, and what level of tinkering is required?

    3. I would like to start a small, home based 3D printing service, and naturally I want to keep costs low, and have 4-5 printers running 24/7, will the Robo3D be a good candidate for such application, in terms of ease of use, up time, etc. Needless to say, I want as little print failures as possible.

    4. If so, do you know where can I find a Robo3d R1 plus in Europe? I could only find the regular R1.
    If not, what 3D printer out there will suit my needs?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Mike Kelly

    Mike Kelly Volunteer

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    1) One or 2 people have gone down to 10 micron, even on a beta printer. I've heard of a few people printing at 50 micron as well.

    2) No modifications are needed really. The R1+ Z axis moves 1/800mm every step so for 0.05mm that's 40 steps. I've heard there's a minimum limit on how much a step can be, but I'm sure it could do .01mm, which is 8 steps.

    Though let me ask you this, what do you envision needing this kind of layer height for? Generally speaking the limiting factor on a 3D printer is the nozzle diameter. You can buy a .25mm nozzle to replace the stock .4mm nozzle, which reduces your feature radius to .125mm from .2mm. Not an enormous change but can help on miniatures. The real kicker with printing small is the dwell heat. When your nozzle stays so close to the plastic it keeps the section warm and can warp it as it puts on new plastic.

    Typically if you're looking to do something really small you'd want a SLA printer as that can do very small layer heights and has a very fine feature radius. Plus it's essentially a cold process so fine details come out very clean.


    It should also be noted that parts are stronger when printed with thicker layer heights. A .3 layer height print will have a much smaller chance of layer adhesion issues.

    3) It would be a good printer I'd think. Though don't over estimate the amount of people who need 3D printed parts, nor how easy it is to print.

    4) RoBo3D ships internationally I believe. I'm not sure the R1+ has percolated out enough yet.


    If I were you I'd buy the Ultimaker. More expensive but a phenomenal printer
     
  3. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    Hey Mike,
    thank you for your quick reply.

    1+2. So the Robo R1 plus can print at 50 out of the box, and it's just a settings issue?
    Then why aren't they putting it on their specifications page? It can be a selling point.
    Is there documentation for nozzle change? What is the trade-off?

    I don't expect to print at 50 microns, all the the time, but I want to have the option to do it and offer it as a service.

    I've been following on SLA printers ever since the B9 creator kickstarter, those are amazing machines, but way too expensive and the resin is so messy. If and when I'll start doing jewelry or miniatures i'll consider it, but at this point FDM has the best cost-benefit ratio for me.

    Also I have great experience with the Ultimaker2, my friend has one and I print at his place from time to time, but the cost... I can buy 2.5 Robos for that price...
    Also it doesn't have auto bed leveling, and couple of my prints failed because of that.

    3. I'm aware of the demand levels, I plan to combine my service with 3D printing and 3D design education.

    4. The import duties and taxes scare me
     
  4. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    One thing Mike didn't mention about printing at that sort of resolution is that it is ... slow.
    really, really slow. Totally doable, search the forums (try user @tesseract -- he did some amazingly small stuff with a beta).
     
  5. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    Hey Mark,
    I know FDM printers are slow at that resolution, I've had 9+ hours prints on the Ultimaker2, one failed at some point close to the finish.
    Is the Robo3D somehow slower than average, or is it the same as other FDM printers?
     
  6. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    I would say that if you looked at a graph of all printers in this range (design and price) it would likely be in the bottom half with regard to speed. It is not the fastest printer out there. As @mark tomlinson mentions printing that small will require slow movements, You will likely need additional parts cooling to keep your very small models from staying too soft.
     
  7. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    I think there are other solutions to the temperature problem, though I'm not sure there are very cost effective, like making an envelope around the model so that the tip moves away from the model between layers, but this will double the printing time. may just sticking a PC fan there will be simpler.

    Anyway I don't expect to print a lot in this resolution, it's just something that I would like to be able to offer as a service provider.
     
  8. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Most software has a minimum time to print for a layer and will either slow down the movement to match or will pause the print head as needed.

    In my experiments you have to reduce the print speed more than linear with the scale. So if we assume 0.2 layer height is 'standard' then 0.05 would be at least 1/4 the speed. In reality a touch more even to maximize the quality.

    @tesseract is really the go-to on this given how much he has played with the tiny scale (and how good his results were)
     
  9. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    He has a thread under SHOW AND TELL (look for "Jeff's printer has arrived")
     
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  10. janot928

    janot928 Active Member

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    I've printed a bit under the 0.1mm layer height.
    a few things:

    not all slicer works great at those resolution: only S3D worked nice. forget about Slic3r Mc etc...

    the only things you need to know is to calibrate your extruder and then your XYZ.

    under 0.1mm you will need support, forget about bridging overhang are more forgivable

    And slow speeds (i print between 15 to 25 mm/s)

    If you need help i think @tesseract has the most experience when it commes to that
     
  11. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    I was planning to use Cura.
     
  12. janot928

    janot928 Active Member

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    might do it, but i never got cura to work with my printer
     
  13. FootCreamAristocrat

    FootCreamAristocrat New Member

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    It would be nice to hear @tesseract's opinion, and also how different is his printer from the stock R1 Plus. I checked the thread "Jeff's printer has arrived" and actually started to go through all the threads he ever started, but so far I didn't see much reference to printing below 0.1 mm
     
  14. janot928

    janot928 Active Member

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    All i can recommand is calibrate your printer perfectly. then try to do a 100micron layer and then go 75 then 50 then 25 then 10 micron.

    go step by step and do not try to rush it.
     
  15. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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  16. tesseract

    tesseract Moderator
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    Actually in my profile you can see this
    Accomplishments: VERY reliable first layer adhesion process; 10,25,50 micron prints; multicolor prints; multi-material prints on E3dV5 May 28, 2015

    That is .01 , .025 and ,.05

    This were very small prints 3 side pyramids without a base and about 5/8 inch tall and the finest resolution took about 90 minutes to do and the surface felt like wet dry sandpaper no layers could even be felt. The reason for not doing more was the time it took to get it all setup and the print time with no real good purpose to do so other than to see how fine I could go. this was all way before the auto bed leveling and Matter Control so what I did as far as setup was completely manual
     
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