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Specs

Discussion in 'Printing Filament' started by tesseract, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. tesseract

    tesseract Moderator
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    Pros: Ductile, holds its shape better, vapor polishing, solvent welding, better bridging

    Cons: Difficult to print with

    Everyday examples: Rainbird Sprinkler housing

    Concerns:

    Known Issues:
     
  2. JDM_

    JDM_ New Member

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    Do you know how much shrinkage you get with ABS? If I am going to print a replacement part that needs to line up perfectly... Do I print it at 100.1%? 101%?
     
  3. tesseract

    tesseract Moderator
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    Pros: Ductile, holds its shape better, vapor polishing, solvent welding, better bridging

    Cons: Difficult to print with

    Everyday examples: Rainbird Sprinkler housing

    Concerns: Shrinkage???

    Known Issues:
     
  4. CAMBO3D

    CAMBO3D New Member

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    I'm not so sure about difficult to print with, i use abs exclusively for all my prints on the rostock max. I dont think its difficult at all.

    I haven't noticed any shrinkage.
     
  5. tesseract

    tesseract Moderator
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    I think the main concerns were warping and such during printing which I have heard a lot about, no personal experience yet. Some one was talking about printing a very thinned walled structured and it failed due to one of the walls itself folding. Don't think PLA, for example, has the same concerns is all.
     
  6. JDM_

    JDM_ New Member

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    Depending on what is being printed you probably wouldn't notice the shrinkage. My understanding is it's less than 1%. I'm going to be printing some quadcopter arms and the mounting holes need to line up perfectly with he motors and frame. I know others have said they printed at over 100% to account for shrinkage. I was just wondering what that magic number was. Exactly how much does is shrink? .01%? .05%? The shrinkage is also what causes the warping.
     
  7. CAMBO3D

    CAMBO3D New Member

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    abs warps because of the temperature difference in heating and cooling. ideally its better to print in a heated chamber with abs for large prints.
     
  8. JDM_

    JDM_ New Member

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    Yes.. but it's my understanding that the temp difference causes a small bit of shrinkage which is the cause of the warping.

    When you have a bunch of layers and some shrink it causes lifting from the build platform.

    Again I have no experience printing ABS yet... This is the info I have gotten from the Internet.... An everything on the Internet is true! :)
     
  9. CAMBO3D

    CAMBO3D New Member

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    temperature is main problem, shrinking and warping are the effects of not keeping the temperature in check. This is especially true for large abs printed objects. I wouldn't try to print a 10x10x8 abs object on the robo unless it was in a build chamber.
     
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  10. Printed Solid

    Printed Solid Volunteer Admin
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    Justin: 1% is a pretty safe first try.

    To elaborate on the temperature issue. A typical coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) for ABS is around 70-75 ppm/degC. As the material cools, it wants to shrink. When you're adhered to the build plate, you're in a nice fixed boundary condition of ~100C, but as you get away from that condition, then you are seeing more of a temperature gradient in your deposited material.
    Worst case scenario, you have no heated enclosure. You're depositing at 220. Let's say that it quickly drops to maybe 160 as its solidifying and use that as a start for the calculation. So you have around 140C temperature delta for material away from the heated build plate.
    This material wants to contract by 10,080ppm =1%. This is the number you typically hear quoted for ABS.
    However, the material that is stuck to the build plate is at 100C, so you're only looking at a 60C delta, so around half the contraction. This results in a buildup of stress at the base or warping/delam. The bigger and thicker the part, the more material that is trying to force that contraction and the harder it is to prevent warping or cracking.

    Nylon has a slightly higher CTE, so I'm guessing it will also benefit from a heated enclosure, but maybe the elasticity of the material is high enough that its not an issue.

    The numbers I've seen quoted for PLA CTE are insanely low (lower than ceramics), so they're probably wrong, but they do support the fact that PLA doesn't need a heated enclosure.

    For those of you still awake, even if you prevent warpage entirely with a heated enclosure and a very gradual cooling, you still have those stresses in your part. Those are residual stresses that can cause the part to do weird things if you are machining it (i.e. boring out holes or tapping) or assembling. It might also make the part do weird things in service. So you may want to anneal it, which means you bring it up to a high temperature to and slowly lower the temp.
     
  11. 1d1

    1d1 Active Member

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    Matt, you rock.
     
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  12. CAMBO3D

    CAMBO3D New Member

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    example: here is an almost 11 inch print using abs, pretty much the whole build area on the rostock max.
    there are ways to counteract warping. this is the technique I and some others have found that work really well.

    If you notice there are tabs or mickey mouse ears around the perimeter of the print, this helps keep the abs material anchored to the build surface throughout this 12hr print.
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. tesseract

    tesseract Moderator
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    Cambo so you are saying your heated surface warps and thats what cause the print to lift. I was under the impression that the ABS material itself was what was warping. Doesn't your image show the clips and etc. holding the heated surface down I was expecting something keeping the print itself down, something like the ABS glue smeared on the heated plate
     
  14. 1d1

    1d1 Active Member

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    So, ABS slurry or hair spray, mouse ear tabs, heated bed and heated enclosure with an extended cooling period or possible annealing. The popularity of PLA becomes more clear...
    What temp should the heated enclosure maintain?
     
  15. Printed Solid

    Printed Solid Volunteer Admin
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    indeed. I like the properties of ABS, so I stick it out, but If you look at a lot of the leading printers out there, they are sold without heated beds and marketed as 'PLA printers' for just this reason. The Makerbot Replicator 2 and the Ultimaker are both good examples.

    The annealing and extended cooling period isn't necessarily a requirement.
    Heated enclosure should be 75-85C. Not sure how well the printer will hold up to sustained exposure.
     
  16. CAMBO3D

    CAMBO3D New Member

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    yes and no,

    there are two different problems. yes abs does warp but not because of a warping build surface. but warping build surface will cause premature warping.. make sense? say for the example above. if one side of the build surface was not even, than that side would start to warp first. vs a flat surface
     

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