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Is everything backwards?

Discussion in 'Filament' started by OutsourcedGuru, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    Sometimes you see all this effort in an industry like this and everyone accepts it:

    "All filament must be kept dry."

    I dunno about that. Should we accept something like this without examining it first?

    * Many people find that PLA behaves better when it's lubricated.
    * Many assume that a roll of filament left outside of its bag has gone brittle because it's absorbed water vapor from the air.
    * PLA is polyactic acid made from corn starch and I've also heard of vegetable oil.
    * Water in theory messes with the monomer chain of polyactic acid. Hydrolysis is one of the methods of recycling PLA.

    I'm now printing the end of a roll of Robo black PLA and it's gone super brittle since it's been on the desktop and out of its packaging for a month now. The slightest pressure will break the filament itself.

    The general wisdom of the industry suggests that it's gone bad because it's absorbed water. That's certainly possible since corn starch plus water changes its behavior significantly, especially when heat is involved.

    But what if we're thinking about this wrong? What if the problem is that the PLA is losing something like those double-carbon bonds due to oxidation? Now remember, we probably own cars which have tubing and plastic surfaces. For decades, I've returned EGR rubber vacuum hosing to its "like new" luster by lubricating it with WD-40.

    We know that UV rays, oxidation and ozone break some of the carbon chains in rubber and plastics. Keeping rubber/plastic dry isn't the solution since air includes oxygen which is a likely culprit. Just like in the car industry where we're using Armor All and WD-40, we might want to choose a wet approach to fixing this. (Covering something in oil is a way of preventing oxidation.)

    Armor All is made from water, silicone, diethylene glycol, glycerin and other things. At least for rubber/plastic found in cars, water isn't a problem.

    Keeping something dry doesn't prevent oxidation, in fact it promotes it in plastics and rubbers.

    Where I'm going with all this is that maybe building a dry box for filament isn't the answer; what you really need is a wet box which includes a fair amount of coconut or canola oil or say, WD-40 (which is fish oil).

    Although canola seems to be the main filament lubricant of choice, coconut oil has the highest percentage of saturated fat at 87% so it should be the least likely to go rancid.

    With this in mind, I intend to build a wet box for my dual-spool filament holder and to incorporate coconut oil or WD-40 into the design.
     
  2. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    PLA itself doesn't need lubrication. The nozzle needs(seasoning) it to keep from micro clogging/ clogging when running something sticky like PLA.

    PLA goes brittle due to moisture, appropriately dry out your spool and you'll notice it come back.

    Nylon is by far worse as is PVA. Leave it out and you might well just throw the PVA away and be ready for some ugly nylon prints if you dont dry it.

    ABS and PLA typically can be left out (depending on enviroment) for long periods without issue. a month is pretty quick, may want to put a dehumidifier in that print room if thats common practice (or print more).

    You can certainly do as you wish but I would not recommend using coconut oil or wd40 on filament that will run through your hotend. Your machine your call, but the industry as a whole agrees on the issues of moisture and filament :D. Not to mention my experiences personally.

    Dry it out :D

    edit: @mark tomlinson lives in the swamp, he could likely firm up anything I have wrong.
     
    #2 Geof, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
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  3. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Nothing wrong there. PLA gets brittle as it absorbs water and getting the water back out is best done by storing it with desiccant for and extended period of time (or live with it*) There are places where folks say using a 'bake it out' approach works, but I will warn you -- YMMV** and I would not suggest that approach :) Keep it stored with desiccant when possible if you want to minimize water in the filament. Some filaments ... (nylon is one) you really do not want any water in.



    *It gets brittle, not unusable. There will also be tiny steam bubbles in the printed filament.
    **This is a royal pain and requires a way to accurately get the spool above 212F (100c) but below whatever the transition temperature is for that filament. Given that PLA is generally 55-60C you can see the issue there... True, getting it above 50c will eventually enourage the water to flee, but seriously ... just don't let it get wet.
     
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  4. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Some use a dehydrator and claim wonders. I print enough (I know shocking) where a spool never lasts long enough to get wet. Nylon is the only exception and I vac seal it with desicant so no issues.
     
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  5. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    These spools are coming in bags with desiccant and no air in them. It's that "no air" part that I'm talking about as well.
     
  6. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    the air itself causes no issues to filament. Moisture in the air does. They are vacuum sealed to avoid moisture (with desiccant), not air.
     
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  7. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    You're basically making my point by reiterating what the industry believes and has come to accept. I'm asserting that oxygen causes problems.

    So I'll do some testing in this area and eventually report back if I'm getting anywhere on that.
     
  8. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Interesting idea. Perhaps a long-term problem ... certainly not as big an impact as moisture absorption IMHO.
    I have not had a lot of filament hang around long enough to measure that sort of impact.
    Let us know what you find.
     
  9. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    Will do. It's definitely protected from UV at the moment where it's sitting but it's super-dry here in San Diego most of the time and especially thoughout the summer months.
     
  10. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    No, I'm telling you based off first hand extensive experience with well over 20 machines and well over 500 spools of filament on hand at all times that dry air has absolutely no issue with filament or printers. Moisture filled air does. Do as you wish, buf I'm telling you if in a month your PLA is junk as you say it is its because your climate control where you have your machine or filament is sub par and should be addressed to alleviate your issues.
     
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