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Partial Answer R1+ PEI Sheet?

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by Eric Viglotti, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Hello,

    I was using an R1+ with just hairspray directly onto the glass until I put a bit too much on one day and shattered the glass. Not cool. So I purchased a 10x10 PEI Gizmodorks PEI sheet from Amazon and got a replacement bed from Robo. Anyone had good success with using a PEI sheet such as this without actually using the permanent adhesive layer? I like the idea of using binder clips to make it less permanent and easier to maintain, but I seem to only be able to put them on the right side as there is not enough room on the left side and it's not big enough to clip front to back and even still there seems to be a lot of flex in the middle of the bed if only clipped and not secured using the adhesive sheet.

    Any ideas would be much appreciated!
     
  2. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    I dont use binderclips I use the 3m adhesive on all machines I put PEI on. I would suggest using adhesive :D . Also if using PEI check out buildtak Spatula for removing parts so you dont scratch and gouge the PEI :D
     
  3. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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  4. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    If you used a piece of plate or sheet glass the binder clips would be fine, for PEI you really want to use the glue :)
     
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  5. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    can always have a local machine shop cut you a piece of spring steel. then you have the "famous flex plate" and just clip it to your bed :D
    then the pei is glued on and the whole "set up" is removeable.
     
  6. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Thanks all. As much as I like the idea of the piece of steel to give me some options, Gizmodorks really recommended having very little between the heated bed and the PEI, so I think I'll just risk it and attach directly to the R1+ glass bed.

    What temperature for the bed do you recommend with a PEI sheet on the R1+ like this? I have been running 50 degrees since the day I got it and have always struggled with warping for the part of the print that is towards the back of the machine, but per the attached photo is is warping everywhere. Does a higher temp help then with warping if I'm using PLA? Gizmodorks seemed to recommend at least 70, but is there any downside to a higher temp heated bed? I assume this question goes for both the R1+ and R2 (which is then somewhat related to my other post of http://community.robo3d.com/index.php?threads/r2-pei-and-z-offset-i-think.20126/)

    Thanks!
     

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  7. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    I typically print around 40-55 degrees with PLA on PEI. Depends on the machine. If you warp or the bottom layer looks "Melty" lower the heat on the bed. Try with your normal settings. You'll likely see no difference. Keep in mind, I have never used gizmodorks PEI
     
  8. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Interesting, I always thought warping came because it was cooling too fast and not adhering to the bed in the process and thus a hotter bed would keep everything "connected" more and keep it from warping up.
     
  9. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    warping depends on the material
    what you describe is true for ABS, not PLA or nylon
     
  10. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    PEI does have an upper limit. Most sources recommend 85°C maximum for ABS printing. Although higher temps won't really hurt as the Tg of PEI is over 200°C.
     
  11. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    I pretty much print exclusively with PLA, so it sounds like by 50 degree bed on the R1+ and 60 degree bed with my R2 with PEI sheets over each bed is reasonable. So let me see if some of the other PEI tweaks from these threads help on the warping as it really has been annoying for quite some time as so many prints have been ruined because of one side being warped even though the rest is all fine above it. Thanks!
     
  12. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    Make sure you clean the bed off thoroughly with alcohol wipes or denatured alcohol to remove any debris and oils that are left on the bed. That alone should help with adhesion.
     
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  13. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Yes, thanks. I was doing this from time to time with previous PEI setups, but admittedly not between each and every print, so I should definitely start doing that. Thanks for the reminder.
     
  14. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    I use the rought side of a green and yellow kitchen sponge to "scuff up" the PEI then wipe down with ISO then as long as you dont touch it it should be good for quite awhile.
     
  15. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Thanks everyone for your help. I was able to gently, progressively apply the PEI adhesive layer and then the PEI sheet and it seems to be on there nice and smooth. I was still having tons of warping, but only on the back and after lots of tinkering, it seemed to really help to put a scrap of paper between the two rear magnets as the bed didn't seem to level front to back. This seems to be much better, so for now I'll consider this answered. Thanks!
     
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  16. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Manually getting everything leveled helps autolevel do its job, good job !
     
  17. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    I was able to put a sheet of paper between each of the two rear magnets and that allowed me to get the bed fairly level and get a good print at either 50 or 60 degree bed using PLA, so long as the print is small and in the middle of the bed. However, I continue to have struggles where something, which I think is warping, is happening to the rear of the print near the rear of the bed. I have had struggles on and off for the life of my R1+ where what looks to me like warping is happening, but only on the rear of the print, never in the front. At first it was happening because my R1+ was near a window, but per the "printer location" photo, I have it in a closet and have kept trying to add foam boards to eliminate any potential draft or anything of that nature. It seemed to be better with hair spray than PEI, but it always has been a challenge. I have tried at 50 or 60 degrees bed and both do the same thing.

    Any idea if this is indeed warping or something else? Admittedly this tough print job doesn't have too much in contact with the bed and does have a fillet at the bottom making it rounded, but clearly the printer is perfectly capable of printing this in the middle of the bed, but not near the rear which has always annoyed me.

    FYI, I have had similar issues with my R2 printing this with that having the same result, but towards the front of the bed, but I'll work through that separately.

    Any help would be very much appreciated!!!!
     

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  18. KTMDirtFace

    KTMDirtFace Well-Known Member

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    I don't use PEI but I use sanded lexan on mine with the small binder clips.

    You can have the clips face the front and back, but then sometimes the fan hits the back ones..if you have the fan duct i have... during homing.. or you can put them on the sides and then remove the handles from the binder clips. and nothing hits.. but then you have to find the handles when you need to remove it lol

    EDIT: On to the warping/curling.. I get that too, what helps me is putting a skirt that touches( 0 offset) the part with about 5-10 outlines on it..and/or Changing simplfy3d's first layer setting to really piss out a ton of plastic. I don't know how to do that in other slicers...

    Note: I don't use a heated bed anymore and print in PETG only.

    Latley mine are so stuck down I have to remove my lexan and bend it to pop the parts off.

    [​IMG]
     
    #18 KTMDirtFace, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  19. Eric Viglotti

    Eric Viglotti Member

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    Very interesting. But doesn't it seem very odd that it's only the backside of the part when printed on the back half of the bed? I even spun my printer around so I could see the back and rule out drafts and indeed, the back side is peeling up from the bed, but only on the part furthest back on the bed. What could this be that would cause a part to peel up/curl/warp only in one spot on the bed? Interestingly due to shattering the glass here recently, this is now a brand new R1+ glass bed and heater and it's still doing this exactly as it was before.

    What is a little creepy is that both with this bed and the last one, the hot end area is not inside the square marked on the glass where you would think it would be. You can see that from the "skirt-showing-position-on-bed" picture as the PEI is centered over the print area yet that is outside the square printed on the glass with the "hot zone do not touch". I have been told repeatedly by Robo that this doesn't matter, but could it be that the front of the bed is heated but the back isn't? Just really weird that this has been the case with two completely separate glasses I've installed.

    Thanks.
     
  20. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Look under the bed. The heater is stuck on a location almost at random :) So it is entirely possible that the front section is heated more than the back. Add that to the fact that the build plate is much larger than the printer area....
     

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