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Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by WheresWaldo, Jun 8, 2018.
You just need to watch it yourself. I am passing no judgement nor will I comment on this video.
I wish I could link to a direct comment, but Barnacules chimed in with:
EDIT for everyone else: The fun for Joel starts around the 11-minute mark.
I'm having flashbacks to the exact same shit issues with leadscrews on the R1.
The problem here is that the mechanical issues are the exact same mechanical issues they had on the R1 when they went from couplers/threaded rods to actual leadscrews on the Z-axis.
It isn't like these leadscrews get bent during assembly into the printer/shipping, these are leadscrews that were bent at manufacturing that should never have been put into printers. Leadscrews so bent that I could see them in the Youtube video where the camera was some 4-5 feet away from the printer prior to Joel zooming in to show the bent screw (you could see the top end of the leadscrew waving around in an elliptical path while the long Z-lowering bit happened and he was all "no stop lowering!").
The fact that Joel even talks for a minute about "a batch of Robo printers with known bent leadscrews" during the part where he talks about how this particular printer was sent in a dedicated courier and still had a bent leadscrew is damning as all hell.
With Chinese manufacture about the only way to assure that none of this is generated at the factory is to hire an agent to double check on the QA process. When the company I used to work for started doing that, just hiring an agent wasn't enough. We had to put an employee full time at the China factory so that no shenanagans were going on during the manufacturing process. It may not be that dire in today's China.
My issue with Barnacles, old news, it was a bad experience, we know. Banacles mentions it every chance he gets, he needs to get over himself.
Care to name another 3d printer seller that sells printers at the same price point Robo has their printers marked at that has the exact same mechanical issues? I know of at least one that sells printers at lower price points that does not.
Yeah, a company that only sells delta kits isn't really a comparable point of reference (especially not since even at the $1,400 price point you're getting 32-bit controllers and 0.9-degree steppers and a bunch of other bells and whistles that aren't included in any of the R* line).
I should hope that a delta wouldn't have issues with bent leadscrews, at any rate.
hows about my Ultimaker that came in with all its set screws loose and rods not seated correctly? Suppose thats not an appropriate example either since its a 3k machine and the Robo is 1500.00.
Hows about my sigma that came in unable to calibrate itself and both stepper motors bad? No suppose thats not appropriate either since its 2600 and the Robo is 1500.
Gmax that cant print at all because stepper drivers wernt tuned, z leads were poorly adjusted and antibacklash nuts to tight to move past the halfway point on travel? (not to mention frame being un square and MANY other issues) but that wont work because its 3500.00 with the heatbed (I paid) and the Robo is 1500.
See what I'm getting at it? Shit happens man. Buckle down, work with the supplier to fix the issue and on with your life. if your not technically capable you have to play the machine swap game (or if the OEM prefers it and its their dime under warranty)
FWIW - Look at the real MK3 posts about random issues like crash detection needing to be turned off, ringing, pinda failures, runout nonfunctional, power saver not functional/repeatable..... They are all plagued by the "its a machine syndrome".
Now...the Mk2... great machine. Mine? Pinda didn't work reliably but wasn't "warrantied" during the warranty. I would have had to buy it. So it runs without autolevel since. It also needs rebuild often- more so than my R1 machines (though my R1 are upgraded to a V6- so I suppose apples to apples? )
(I was secretly hoping @Geof would comment on this -- came to see -- left happy)
Did Ultimaker provide support at no additional cost on your end?
Same for this one?
Same for this one?
Have you bought any of their newer machines since you originally purchased those others and faced the same problems? Did you get warranty replacement machines that had the exact same problem/worse issues than the original unit?
Right, but for each of the machines you listed, I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers actually took steps to fix any widespread/widely reported issues. Also, I'm pretty sure that if you receive an OriginalPrusa where a component isn't functioning correctly on arrival/assembly that they will send you a replacement component at no shipping charge to you.
The difference here is that my specific gripe--bent leadscrews--has plagued Robo's printers since they were first offered.
Did any of the more expensive machines you listed have the same exact issue? Did that issue persist across four years and three different printer design iterations? Have there been any posted in-depth reviews of any of Robo's machines where the CE-Fing-O has told the reviewer that the unit they were receiving was getting special treatment where the machine didn't show up with the very issue this special treatment was to avoid?
Do the MK3/MK2 issues persist across design changes? Does Josef Prusa not post regularly about known issues and what he and his team are doing to fix them in future builds of the machine?
The difference I'm getting at here is: every single other company you listed (or at least Ultimaker and PrusaPrinters do this)? They make some attempt to fix the issues being complained about and publicly post about what they are doing about it.
Robo? Nope. The community has zero public posting by the actual staff of the company about the issues reported to them and what they are doing to fix it.
Everything is two degrees removed in the form of some moderator on this forum posting the equivalent of "Some guy working for Robo said someone in a different department is working to address this".
And that is if the Robo representative in question doesn't flat out deny that there is an issue and accuse the people reporting it (here, Reddit's 3D Printing subreddits, Twitter, Facebook, etc.) of being the problem.
Just the bent leadscrew issue alone has happened for how many batches of units sold now? Watch Joel's video again and listen to the portion where he relays his discussion with @Braydon ROBO 3D about the bent leadscrew issue in the second R2 he'd received to test (in the bit about how they were shipping it via a dedicated courier truck because of claims that shipping handling was the cause of said bent screws).
Rushing to Robo's defense for an issue that they are notorious for in every general 3D printing community is not something that should be done here.
And you listed more expensive machines, what about less expensive machines? I've got two machines that cost less than $400 combined that were fully-assembled units from the vendor with steel frames and a full one-year, free shipping both ways, free replacement warranty system for both units. And both of those units have printed higher quality prints than anything I ever got from the four different Robo units I've owned (using the same slicer settings in S3D other than the build area definitions, because they all use some flavor of Marlin).
No Reseller (Printed Solid) Took care of it trouble shooting as UM was unavailable (I have yet been able to contact them) Suppose time zone issue eh?
Negative- Machine is still unreliable and unable to calibrate. Have to work around to get the machine to dual after a power off (so it stays on most days). Will say the reseller (Designbox3d) did just hook me up with a mainboard to see if that helps as after spending over 500 on R17 upgrades that BCN said would fix it (Flawed original design I suppose?) didn't fix it lol.
Somewhere I have the email on this one . Its quite a good one. Granted they have let that person go and the owners play a tighter role in support after we met last year at the TCT, but I was told there is an owners manual and to read it. That was the end of support until I met the owners at TCT and had the machine running.
No I have not bought any of the new versions of their machines. my UM2+ extended is still "top of their line" for single color and the UM3 is set at a price I can ROI.
I have yet to get a replacement part I repeatedly asked for while under warranty. Their response was I must have build the Mk2 wrong. Official channel on that one . Not salty, manually level the bed and I print with it still. But that was the response I got.
I suppose the same could be said about most things, but if you have 2 machines (and joel has 2 machines) that dont work with bent leads and I have 4 R1+, an R2 and a C2 that do work and didn't have that issue what does that say? . You should also bear in mind that as far as I know Joels R2 was sent at the same time (months ago) they found the leadscrew issue and corrected it (as I dont hear about it anymore). Doesn't mean it isn't still happening, just means I havent been hearing about it for months, so they must have fixed it? Or gotten really lucky recently? (Or fixed it lol).
I would be careful claiming that I am rushing to any one companies defense (or negativity), remember I volunteer my time to the forum to help other users as I was helped, I'm not on Robos payroll nor do I owe them anything. I was simply letting you know ( as I'm aware you use much cheaper machines than I do and fair quite better with the single brand) that it is NOT a one brand thing. All companies have issues that get to the customers (hows that delta? see what I mean...its all of them) .
Cant comment on special treatment and the etc as I have no insider knowledge of the conversations between Braydon and Joel nor do I have any idea what the "terms " or anything else that went on to come to that position.
To answer the cheaper than the Robo- the R1+ is what 400? So cheaper than that I have my Startt Kit and Dagoma Neva. Both arrived in one piece (kit flat packed with one broken acrylic part- little tape and super glue) Dagoma didn't work, was sent a 2nd, also doesn't work "great" but does print sometimes.
I can only imagine Robo shares the information if asked. I know I have asked Braydon, Ryan and Jerry on multiple occasions what is going on with things and I have gotten what I believe to be a "real world" answer. If you want a company to follow in the steps of another company as far as putting out there what they are working on I cant help ya there, ask them? They havent and I doubt they ever will, but can certainly ask lol. You can jump on their Github (like Waldo does) and get some insight to what software work is going on, but thats about it and I doubt
will ever go past that.
From what I recall of the R1+ series (from all the time I've been here at least helping people and getting help since I got mine) it was not a HUGE issue with the R1+. I could be wrong there and I'm sure if I dug back I could find a small percentage of issue reported here (no idea what didn't come through here) but I do not recall an epidemic of lead screws? I believe the R1 has z wobble issues that plagued people, but was corrected with the lead screw upgrade no? Anyway, I should mention this is not a jab at you, the OEMs I listed or the OEMs I didn't list, just sharing my experiences with VARIOUS oems to hopefully add some realism for anyone that wants it .
Stand by what I said- They ALL have issues. If you dont want to work through them, ship em back. Your never stuck and there is always something that can be done. Gotta figure out if you want to or just want your money back. I cant tell you that had I not kept any of mine the companies I listed would care about as much as the fact they arrived non functioning or not perfect. They are aware crap happens .
I love conversations like this. Even more so when I can share my experiences with "well thought of brands" that i have a less than desirable experience with. Nice thing, if you reach out to a reseller, they will typically be happy to help you and go above and beyond if they are good ones.
Might want to re-watch the video in the OP. The machine Joel was using in that one was the third machine, which he fixed by robbing parts off of the first machine (the 2nd machine was sitting elsewhere in the shop area after being set aside from the frustrating unboxing that was timelapsed into the introduction of the video).
Joel is 0/3 on machines that worked out of the box, I'm 0/4, so that's one more machine than your count of 6 machines for a slightly higher than 50% documented failures.
I'm talking mainly about you, Mark and Waldo (and some others in past discussions) posting essentially the same "All companies have some problems" response to this kind of complaint. As if that somehow makes the problems Robo has been having not a problem any more.
Joel literally relays the conversations he's had with Braydon in the video in the OP. If those conversations never happened, then @Braydon ROBO 3D needs to speak up and say so in a response to Joel's video.
I bought one of those printers back when the going price for the R1+ was $600. Doesn't matter though because I'm not seeing any prints by the C2 or R2 that are better than the prints I get off my $170 fully-assembled printer (the only feature lacking on it is that it isn't an auto-leveling machine, but don't get me started on how overrated auto-leveling is as a feature).
It's easy to forget about all of the complaints about the leadscrew issues when a lot of material was selectively "lost" during a forum "upgrade" after the R1+ was released.
And I stand by my earlier point that "They all have issues" does not excuse "Robo continuously has this specific issue".
I'd rekon a bet if I started including others we could get that well below 50% . I'm just one user lol. ( 0/3? didn't one work at the end? isn't that 1/3 and waiting on parts for the others? so the company DID do something?) lol just being that guy now ! HAHA apologies. just enjoying the banter.
Nope just making sure anyone that reads it understands its NOT just one company. its ALL companies. Thats the main point of me showing my experiences.
Cant comment on that, no insider knowledge. I'd imagine those are conversations we wont hear.
I'd rekon a bet that my R2 and C2 could give your little guy a run for its money Would be fun at some point to do a comparison thread? I've always been interested in that little beastie (219 on Amazon last I looked )
Dont know about that either lol. I didn't handle any part of any forum transition/upgrade. All handled by Harry who isn't involved anymore. I'd hope we didn't lose anything, but i'm sure we did. Imagine what would have been lost had they went to the in house forum they tried (thankful we at least have a forum)
Never had the issue with any of my machines so cant really say they do or they dont, other than I didn't and when I heard about the R2s shipped out with the issue its my understanding they were fixed or swapped. Cant ask much more than that ? Well I suppose we can lol. Hopefully they have gotten it together but like Waldo stated, being assembled by Foxcon in China you have a certain amount of "heartbreak" if your not constantly involved every step of the way. Which I cant imagine a small company like Robo could afford to do full time? No idea lol.
Can say your right, there is no excuse, but as long as they are fixing the issues cant really be to pissy eh?
You can usually get it directly from Monoprice for between $150-180 when they have their monthly 3d printer sales (including shipping).
I'm game for some comparison makes, assuming we agree to basic setting parameters for apples-to-apples comparisons (layer heights at .0875 as the smallest layer height, for example, as that's the limit for the Z-axis stepper positioning on the Mini, though I've been getting some remarkably smooth prints even at .2675 layer heights).
Of course! No sense in doing a comparison thats one sided. I can adjust my profiles to match what you want to print at. I'm hopeful it blows the R2 away so I can buy a couple of them guys lol.
Good to know on buying direct! Will keep an eye out on the sale!
Do you want to start the thread or should I? Should there be a poll? My current selection of Makes can be seen at https://www.thingiverse.com/daniel871/makes but some of them don't look as good after uploading the pictures as they do when I look at the pictures on my phone/in person (reminds me that I need to upload the Make for Marble Machine #3 after I get some metal BBs and figure out how to get a GIF of it working and upload it).
You can fire it up. Do any kind of poll you'd like Should be a fun thread! Hit me up with the prints were doing. Would prefer something 12 hrs and under if possible since its at the home shop so I dont have to wait for the weekend (I dont let machines run unattended if possible)
Thread posted and you're tagged in the OP, I posted a link to my previous Makes in the OP if you want to post links to existing Makes of your own that happen to be similar in settings (or you can post your own Makes link and I'll look for something we've both printed for a follow-up post).
Typically the stuff I run that isn't in the show and tell section on Waldos post are under NDA. Would have to print some stuff. Will check thread shortly