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R2 Bed Leveling Issue or Print Warping?

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by TransBat, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    I've finally been able to set aside some time to get my Kickstarter R2 printer setup, and I've had great success with a few smaller prints that probably use only about the center 3-4 inch portion of the bed.

    I've moved on to print some other larger objects, and despite spending 90+ minutes a few different times running through the initial z-offset, fine-tune z-offset, and running through the bed leveling (guided mode) - my prints start to peel up at the edges, even though at first glance the first layers appear just fine. Running the various "lines" tests I felt I got the bed relatively level, with lines appearing fairly even on both sides. I have also noticed that most of the spiral level bed test have blended together into one line, with the exception of the little tiny zigzag pattern on the outermost ring/edge at the 3 o'clock position.

    I'm using Cura for Robo 2.5, and included a screenshot of my printer settings in the gallery as well. The prints didn't exhibit the "curling" at the edges until at least a couple of hours into the print job. The first print of the bottom half of the case utilized a 6-line thick brim, while I used no brim/skirt/raft on the top portion of the case. Current z-offset is -7.15. My Robo R2 did not come with their little leveling gauge/tool, so I've been using either a half sheet of either plan white printing paper or a half sheet of thin/light card stock to help set my z-offset.

    I'm using eSun PLA Pro+ filament - extruder temp of 210, heated bed at 60. Even with a brand new roll of filament, the issues occur.

    I would greatly appreciate any advice you can provide me. While I fully admit I'm a 3D printing novice, I haven't encountered these issues with my Robo C2 once I successfully calibrated my z-offset.
     
  2. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    I'm unsure why the forum felt my content links were inappropriate, but the project I'm currently working on is a 3d Mini-NES case. Enough people have printed this that I'm fairly certain it's not a 3D model issue.

    This Google Photos gallery helps illustrate my issues, please feel free to leave comments/suggestions:
    (I left small comments/notes on each image to help describe what is going)
     
  3. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    That looks like its warping, not a bed leveling issue? Looks like (from the spiral) that youve got a pretty decent z offset going.

    If its indeed warping couple things.

    PLA warps from to much heat, either hotend or heatbed. Drop heatbed temp to 50ish. Put a little glue stick on the bed if it still warps. Please let us know your results.
     
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  4. jscottb

    jscottb Member

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    I +1 the Glue stick on the R2 original bed.

    I would also back off on the hot end temp. Try a closer to 200c. I can print most PLA's at @198c on both of my printers.
     
  5. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    @Geof and @jscottb Duly noted - I'll adjust the heated bed profile to 50c, the hot end temp to 200c, cover the original R2 bed with glue stick and will report back. And silly question, but what's the best "solution" to clean the bed off with between prints if I've used glue stick?

    Any ideas as to what might cause the little zigzag pattern on the outer ring around 2:30-3 o'clock on the spiral level picture? I used to get that for outer 4-5 rings on the right edge of the bed only around the 3 o'clock position, and presumed it was a leveling issue. The spiral level test in the gallery is the best I've managed to achieve - although some of the lines/rings don't blend together as well into one line as they do on my C2.

    Thank you both for your prompt help/suggestions.
     
  6. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    you dont need to clean it off between prints :D it will last a bit. To clean it off I remove the bed and use windex. Thats only if I dont want glue stick on there anymore. Alot of the time you can remove the bed and use a damp cloth to "smear" the glue stick back around the bed. I use the purple elmers glue so I can see it :D. Add more if needed.

    The reason I say to use glue stick after the fact is that will tell us if the PEI sheet is having issue adhering. So first lower temp and test. If warp use glue stick and test. Let us know how those 2 seperate tests go with pictures please.

    The zig zag pattern is hard to make out in the picture for me but it is either to close to far from the bed in that one spot. To close will be ok as it looks to be a small portion of the bed. If you cannot correct for it (likely can not) you can request a new bed from Robo and show them that picture. The R2 uses an old form of leveling that doesn't correct for those tiny flaws (high or low spots) it only corrects for a skewed plane.
     
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  7. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    @Geof understood - I'll lower temps first, and update the gallery with pictures. Should I lower both bed to 50c and hot end to 200c (as suggested by @jscottb) , or just bed first, followed by glue stick (if warping occurs), and then all of the above?:D

    Purple elmer's glue stick is exactly what I have - you can always see where it is :cool:
     
  8. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    I always suggest doing one thing at a time :D. If you do a bunch of stuff at once you dont know for sure what the fix was :D
    it may not be just one thing but its easier to keep track of and learn if you do 1 change, test etc. (my opinion)

    Purple glue stick FTW :D
     
  9. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    One step at a time it is :cool:

    And not sure if this helps, but I uploaded and placed a new image of my initial R2 circle level before the refined R2 circle level. If you look closely/zoom in on the right half, start at the outer edge and move towards center, you can see the zigzag/zipper like pattern extends almost all of the way into center. That was before my 2 different bed-leveling/z-offset sessions :eek:
     
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  10. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    it looks like (hard to be certain with photos) that the right side when looking at the printers front is to low, try raising that side manually while its printing (dont worry about the leveling wizard) and see if it looks better. I'd bet it will. Doesn't look like it would need much, do both the front and back a "smidge" lol.
     
  11. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    I'm going to try the other suggestions first (one at a time like we discussed), but I agree I probably need a bit more tweaking to get that last portion "leveled out". Right now, I'll focus on the presumed warping issue we have at hand. I've also included my last attempt at showing the zigzag/zippered pattern with my original Circle level on the left and the updated Circle level on the right after the two different 90 minutes fine tuning sessions o_O

    Edit: I forgot to ask, since neither of my C2/R2 units including the z-offset leveling tool/paper, is the single sheet of white paper, or the thin white card stock, a good way to help define the initial z-offset? That's all I've been using, but the fine-tune z-offset takes a long time to go though as I print a line or three, switch sides, and repeat the process until I'm fairly happy. I thought using a small level might help the process go quicker/smoother, but I don't think it had any effect on expediting the process.

    What do some of you utilize as a z-offset helper?
     

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  12. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    yep to low on the one side. You can tell in the lines before your zig zag because the extrusion lines are not combined (space) just adjust those real quick. It can contribute to your warping for sure :D
     
  13. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    @Geof I've added 2 new photos to the end of the gallery. First one is my updated Spiral Bed Level from this morning - I raised the front right side of the bed (probably about a half turn), and set the bed to 50c as you suggested - and the zigzag is all but gone now! I'm noticing some lines between (but not gaps) on some of the right arcs, but that's hands down the best spiral left I've had. The left edges might flattened a bit more compared to the right edges - maybe the left side is a slight bit higher?

    2nd picture is a quick shot for the in-progress webcam from the R2 from about 5 minutes ago - it's not looking promising for that one skinny piece on the right front edge, but that piece is also designed to break away after the job completes - it serves as a support for another portion of the case. I'll take some pictures of the finished results, but thus far, trial one of 50c bed, 210c hot end, and no glue stick looks like it will need more tweaking :rolleyes:
     
  14. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    much better. you could just do a little more of an offset at that point and likely have it perfect. bed looks decently level where that shouldn't cause you any issues. just a bit more squish perhaps.

    Ah just saw the right picture lol. Cancel that print and add some more offest (closer to the bed). I think that will help immensely because the bed looks decently level from your spiral test.
     
  15. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    Just to be sure, you believe the bed should be raised a bit closer to the hot end - so my current z-offset is -7.15 - which would mean I could try going to something like -7.12, or -7.10?

    I'm a little concerned that closer might cause wagon wheel tracks on the left side, but it can't hurt to try. I can access the R2 remotely to cancel the job, but might let it ride out since no one is at home to manually remove the print job (1st world problems), and it would be nice to see how the back left corner turns out since the webcam doesn't show that side :D
     
  16. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    oh you dont have to cancel it then, I was just meaning to save ya some plastic :D.

    Yes closer. If it makes ruts on the other side lower that side just a bit :D. The wizard gets you close, manually leveling during that spiral test is my preferred method :D
     
  17. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    I've read many threads on the auto-leveling method(s) the C2/R2 utilize and I finally have begun to understand the complaints. I must admit that I'm forced to chuckle that the closest I've come to a level bed has been my own manual tweaks with that spiral level test, a standard household level, and some guidance from forum members such as yourself @Geof. I realize it will be along time before an auto-level can probably best the manual tweaks and human judgement calls, but I would hope the auto level could come close to "good enough." :rolleyes:

    I think I mentioned it earlier, but what do others use to calculate their z-offsets with? Since I never received that tool with my C2/R2, i normally use either a plain white half-sheet of printer paper, or a half-sheet of thin card-stock.
     
  18. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Thats what we are here for :D.

    A piece of paper works for me. Most times i just eye ball and it do a 1 layer print then adjust until it looks right :D. I dont stress it. There are other versions of bed leveling that work great, just Robo hasn't adopted them yet. One day it will all be push a button, but we are a ways off. Your lucky ;) when most of us started it was much much worse IMO :D. The R2 is much easier to use than the R1 series.
     
  19. TransBat

    TransBat Member

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    I have no doubt my troubles with the C2/R2 pale in comparison to what those with the R1 went through ;)

    I'll adjust my z-offset a bit more (raise the bed closer to extruder) but is it reasonably safe to say that while lowering the bed temp to 50c helped, I should probably head for step 2: purple glue stick + heated bed at 50c

    If that fails, we'll lower the extruder temp to about 200c as @jscottb suggested ;)
     
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  20. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Solid plan ! Keep us in the loop
     

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