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Robo's new Buildtak

Discussion in 'Show and Tell' started by OutsourcedGuru, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    I got a couple of new test bed covers from Robo. They're testing a new Robo-branded Buildtak sheet which looks like it will fit nicely on the C2.

    Looks like it's got a thin film on the back which seems a bit slick to me. I'll investigate to see if it's a film sheet that has glue underneath. (It almost adheres by static electricity alone to a naked bed but that can't be how this lays down.)

    That said, I suppose I should snag some PETG to test with this after the PLA. Robo didn't have any ColorFabb (PLA/PHA) filament yet but I'd like to test that as well. I would really love to lose the rafts so we'll see if this is the answer.

    PrintingWithoutRafts.jpg
     
  2. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    The answer to losing the raft is the mechanically level the bed, then level the bed in relationship with the nozzle and tune in your z offset for your first layer :D (if done right you could print on a piece of paper if you wanted to without a raft)
     
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  3. Kilrah

    Kilrah Well-Known Member

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    I've always had more problems with a raft than without...
     
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  4. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Yea, I never print with a raft. Even on the C2.
    You get the Z offset right and the bed leveled ... not needed. Not even with the default paper/tape bed liner they use.
     
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  5. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    So... have each of you lost the G29 after doing all this, is that implied?

    Honestly, guys, I (think I) believe in my z-offset as set. It lays down line after line (if you slow things down for that first layer). They're all flat across their faces and this is from "sea to shining sea" (full X/Y extent). Part of that success on printing the raft's first layer is the first-layer tweaks I've done in Cura in the adhesion area. The one hiccup is always immediately after the priming line, that initial adhesion of the part itself. I suspect over-retraction after the priming line code as well as a 210 hotend (priming line routine) trying to come back down to 190 without a blocking event. Nobody's tweaked that?

    So are you guys tweaking your first-layer settings in your slicer (speed/extrusion) to succeed without a raft?

    Mark: I heard that you shimmed your magnets to balance the print bed plane.

    Finally, it looks like the C2 bed sags at the front of the printer and further, it allows more vertical wiggle-room than the back does (just part of the design). This appears to be affecting part height with tall parts but I'll confirm.
     
  6. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    With as small as the C2 bed is ditch the G29. Its just silly for a bed that small. Shim the front if its not level front to back.

    (skip to bottom)

    There is no trickery in the slicer other than speed (the way I run my machines). level, level again, level a 3rd time, unclick the raft button, ditch the G29 and get that offset set correctly. If it is in fact set correctly and your warping still you need to clean your bed tape or replace it. You could possibly (to aid in the first layer adhesion) bump the temperature for the first layer.

    If it were me...I would ditch all controls octoprint has over your machine and use the slicer. I'm a wierd person like that in I want all control to be done via the sliced Gcode and want octoprint to STFU and monitor ;) :D I'm sure there are many with different ways than me but it works well for all my machines so :p I just keep on keepin on that way.

    Real world example: I have a 100.00 Startt kit printer that has zero bed adhesion issues and I do not print with a raft and I use the full build (because its hilariously small). (I think its got the same size build as the C2?)

    Long winded nonsense of a post shortened:

    You dont have it set correctly, autolevel is jacking with you, back to tuning :D
     
  7. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Yea, I ditched the G29 after manual leveling and short of something physically changing I will not be leveling again.
     
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  8. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    That is the theory behind UBL and MESH leveling, both of which are disabled in the Marlin version modified by Robo. The idea is you level once, either automated via UBL or manually via MESH and then unless you physically change the disposition of the bed you never have to level it again. UBL and MESH go one better with G29, they simply will tell you the current status of auto-leveling rather than dancing around the bed doing the actual leveling.

    MESH lets you save one mesh for your bed. UBL lets you store multiple meshes especially helpful if you have more than one bed. You can have a mesh for each bed you use. Since I use MESH I left the G29 command in their since it is perfect for telling me that I have mesh data and that the leveling system is active. Also that allows my sliced code to work directly on anyone's properly configured printer.

    The way Geof and Mark do their leveling works perfectly well if your bed is relatively flat and not warped in any way. The leveling schemes are there to account for less than flat beds. Even though we call it auto-leveling technically there is no leveling adjustments they are tramming adjustments and is more accurately labeled auto-tramming.
     
  9. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    I got 2 out of 3 "drop the G29's" so that's close enough for me.

    Alright, got it. Fix the bed level manually. Introduce the extruder to the new setup, drop adhesion gimmicks and you should be good. Hope this works on both beds now (with stock tape & with Buildtak) but maybe not.

    I'll likely ditch Cura for S3D soon enough.

    Geof, I like your idea of moving startup code from OctoPrint->slicer... I guess I'd consider the transferability of STL to someone with the native setup. I suppose it's their responsibility to slice/print it, though. Too bad there's not a file packaging method of STL plus suggested tweaks.
     
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  10. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    The advantage to doing it the way @WheresWaldo suggested it really more of a benefit on the R2. The C2 bed is so small that I really couldn't justify messing with it.
     
  11. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    Yeah C2 is probably small enough that even a warp would be barely noticeable. I can tell you the R2 here has about +- 0.15 mm so there can be some variation between any two measured points That is enough to make a print sliced at 0.1 mm layers to fail to adhere to the bed.
     
  12. Kilrah

    Kilrah Well-Known Member

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    I've removed the G29 some time ago after noticing it actually CAUSES issues (i.e. with a well leveled bed it would "unlevel" it, and especially in varying amounts from a print to the next). For me with it the rear would always end up higher and not sticking, and it would compensate any adjustment I tried to fix it and make it wrong again. Useless.

    Leveling is however shady (maybe due to the G29 as said above) since on your video you posted on the other thread one can see the bed being pushed down when the nozzle is in some places. Shouldn't happen.

    Fixed it first thing, posted my choice of solution several times since.

    Either (preferably) do so with the first layer extrusion wdth, or cheat with a Z offset that pushes a tad more into the bed.


    There's less "resistance to pushing down" in the front due to the rear attachment obviously, but that shouldn't matter as nothing should significantly push down anyway.
     
  13. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    Went to school on your R2-unboxing thread and read it through. Short version: you moved your startup code and the priming line to the slicer (but at something lower than 230) and you possibly added an M400 to the end of that.
     
  14. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    Fair enough, I created a plugin to ignore autoleveling commands and ran that with one of my existing GCODE files. I've confirmed that it simply ignores the command now.

    To make @WheresWaldo happy, I now have a Nikon D3200 for these photos. Unfortunately, the forum doesn't like humungous files so I had to knock them down in quality from their massive bigness (24MP).

    DSC_0001.png DSC_0002.png DSC_0003.png DSC_0004.png

    Staring at these very closely, it feels like dropping the autolevel is just as good as before, if not better. I'd have to run more jobs to verify but it's not horrible and the initial line started smoothly/immediately where the extruder came down. This is a fair change from what I've seen countless times before. The jury's not out yet but autolevel seems to be one of the problems.
     
  15. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    Post the images on a place like imgur.com and then you can post the links here and not fight with the size limitation. I really couldn't care any less about resolution, but I do care greatly about pictures that are out of focus or so shallow in depth of field that it makes it harder to know what you are supposed to be looking at.

    Congrats on the new to you D3200.
     
  16. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    Good advice, there. The gf got a D750 in the bargain so it all worked out.
     
  17. holmes4

    holmes4 Member

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    I find this thread interesting - my C2 came with BuildTak preattached to the printbed. I didn't recognize it for a while - it had also come supplied with the paper tape squares. It wasn't until the surface got damaged that I looked closer and realized what it was. (I should have figured this out earlier, as I have been a BuildTak user for a long time.) I've even bought my own BuildTak sheets and cut them to size for the C2.
     
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  18. OutsourcedGuru

    OutsourcedGuru Active Member

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    I will say, as a guy who maybe has six tape squares left... that if the BuildTak works out better I won't be going back to tape. Adhesion now is... okay I suppose. I have to assume that it's got to be better on the BuildTak.

    Allen indicated to me in email that the BuildTak has a glue layer.

    Out of curiosity, did the BuildTak sheet come off easily?
     
  19. holmes4

    holmes4 Member

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    BuildTak doesn't have a glue layer. It has a textured surface that sticks well to many materials, including some that would normally want a heated bed (PETG, Nylon, etc.) The adhesive that holds it to the bed is very tenacious, but it can be peeled off with reasonable effort.
     

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