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Unresolved Filament issue or printer issue?

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by Oisin, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    Hi guys.

    As you can see from the attached images, there are weird little artifacts showing up on my prints. They get larger the larger the layer height and do not occur on straight walls.

    Is this a filament issue or dome sort of flow rate/ temperature thing? The filament is from a supplier I've used before and haven't seen this with yet.

    It's PLA and I print with it at 210C. The layer heights in the image were 50 microns, 100 microns and 200 microns, all at 20mm/s.

    Any ideas?
     

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  2. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    My first suspect would be a small amount of over extrusion. Did you calibrate the eSteps?
     
  3. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    I did, using that 'Toms guide' video, but the result was that it was telling me to change the esteps to 850 or something to that effect. A Robo3D support technician said it should have been lower than the stock 723, not higher than it, so I'm confused. Repetiers Cura plugin doesn't allow you to control extrusion rates, like Slic3r does, but Slic3r doesn't work for me so I can't use that.

    After changing the esteps to 850, I have gone back to 723.
     
  4. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    They have no clue, 800 or more is more in line with what it should be. Also 20 mm/sec is a bit slow for PLA. They pulled 723 out of you know where! I thought Cura could control line width, which is essentially the same as extrusion rate. I could be wrong as I haven't used Cura in so long.
     
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  5. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Unlike steel or metal gears the plastic ones used in the extruder are not dead on a given spec :)
    There can and will be some variation.
     
  6. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    Ok, so more testing has been conducted. The results are shown in the pictures below.

    1. 195C with 100% flow-rate and 20mm/s.
    2. 205C with 100% flow-rate and 20mm/s.
    3. 215C with 100% flow-rate and 20mm/s.
    4. 195C with 105% flow-rate and 40mm/s.
    5. 195C with 90% flow-rate and 20mm/s.
    6. 195C with 95% flow-rate and 20mm/s.
    7. 195C with 97% flow-rate and 20mm/s.

    All with a layer height of 50 microns and done with an e-steps value of 723 (stock)

    As you can see, anything under 100% flowrate has an incomplete top. This leads me to believe the extruder is calibrated properly.

    All prints show this weird bubbling feature. Test cubes and z-axis calibration tests do now show the feature which makes me think it's not the filament. Any ideas?
     

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  7. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    I wonder if those are the layer start points?
    If so some extra retraction might be needed. It could be carrying a small gobbet of filament around that it deposits on the start.

    Look here (Ooze Controls section):

    https://jinschoi.github.io/simplify3d-docs/
     
  8. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    They could be, but what I did was changed out the red filament for some of the leftover white filament from the same company. That either printed out perfectly, or the defects don't show up as well in white. We'll see after a little more investigation.
     
  9. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Let us know. That is an interesting defect to be caused by filament. I have not seen that before, but I can believe it. If it were a bit wet (absorbed moisture) you will get some surface bubbling. Normally doesn't look exactly like that though,
     
  10. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    I'd prefer it to not be caused by the filament to be honest. If it were the printer then at least I might be able to do something about it. We'll see soon enough!
     
  11. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    Ok, finished with the white filament print and after examining it under the light next to an identical print with the red filament, it's clear that the weird blob effect is happening on the white one too. It's just harder to see because of the colour.

    Anyone seen that effect before?
     
  12. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    Just tried printing with Cura itself, not the cura plugin for Repetier and had this effect on the infill. No idea what caused it. I get the same thing if I try to use Slic3r in Repetier.
     

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  13. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    My suggestion still stands. Calibrate the extruder first. Otherwise you are just chasing your tail trying to fix anything else.
     
  14. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    That's the suggestion that's posted every time I post an issue. The extruder is calibrated.
     
  15. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    You response to my suggestion is in direct conflict with your post #3 and post #6. So what is it, 850 or 723? Please if you want help, clarify this. If Marlin doesn't know what it is extruding there is no way for the slicer, no matter which one you use to be accurately set for multiple styles of filament or multiple nozzle sizes.
     
  16. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Numbers higher than 800 for the eSteps are not uncommon when you actually calibrate the extruder.
     
  17. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    Calibrated the extruder. Got a value of 850 (or so). Saw it was overextruding. Robo3D technician told me it was wrong, but my calculation was correct. Changed the esteps value back to stock. Printed a dome at 100% extrusion and it came out with the top properly printed. Printed the same dome at 99% extrusion and the top was not printed properly. I assumed that meant that the stock value was correct for me.
     
  18. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    Please note this property of plastic filament, it does not come out of the extruder the same as it goes in! PLA for instance expands quite a bit when heated, ABS actually shrinks in volume as it cools (that is why it tends to warp), other filaments react in other differing ways. The point is that if you ask for the extruder to spit out 100 mm of filament it need to spit out 100 mm of filament. Sorry but 723.32 eSteps just doesn't do that. You are also confusing, and you are not alone in this, software settings with hardware capabilities. This is perpetuated by companies that use arbitrary scales based on first generation mechanics that inflate numbers like extrusion multipliers and the like. So what I am saying is that your slicers 100% extrusion multiplier is not 100% but actually more based on assumptions made on early open-source designed printers.

    Bottom line is that you need to adjust the slicer settings to make sure they are extruding the exact amount of plastic the printer is designed to extract. That is the only way to insure that you will not have to make a whole mess of adjustments every single time you change rolls of filament or you move from brand to brand. We have pretty good precision with the Robo, but what we need is accuracy. this is what mechanical tuning gives us a well calibrated (mechanically speaking) machine will perform consistently from print to print and can provide very accurate prints as well no matter what we throw at it.

    I am going to jump of my soapbox now. :)
     
  19. Oisin

    Oisin Member

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    I get what you mean, and I'll redo the calculations as per that 'Toms guide' video. But can you explain why my extruder appeared to extrude the perfect amount of plastic if it wasn't properly calibrated? With 99% being underextrusion and 101% being overextrusion? Maybe I got lucky.
     
  20. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    I explained precisely why that is happening with a firmware value that under extrudes mechanically in my post. I know that my printer does 100 mm when I ask for 100 mm, but in the slicer the extrusion multiplier is set to .92 for PLA, in my particular case. The .92 really has to do with the math required not the actual amount of plastic. Please remember that you are dealing with a machine, not a spreadsheet or other software only entities. Machines have physical requirements. get those correct and then all the software tweaks are only necessary to get it as perfect as you need it to be, not the other way around.
     

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