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Partial Answer Warming Bed Issues (Am I on the right track)

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by Twofirstnames, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    So I was gifted a Robo 1 which I am now having some issues with. About a week ago I was trying to print and for some reason the warming bed kept trying to heat to 90 degrees when I had it set for 55. I kept fighting to get it to change, but to no avail. I should mention I was using MatterControl and the USB cable rather than the SD Card. After several cancels, a few power offs to cool down, it finally puffed smoke from the underneath and then wouldn't warm or read the bed at all.

    My daughter and son-in-law came over to help me and we thought that the ramps board had fried, so we ordered a new one and replaced it with no luck. We eventually thought that the cable to the bed may be bad, or have a short in it and gave up for the evening. A couple days later I thought I would try to test the wires to see if I could find a short. I did find a bare section that looked like it had overheated and melted through. So I replaced the end. (It was the connection for the, I believe, the sensor, since it was thinner and connected to the ramps board. So, I don't think it was the power cable). I replaced the cable tried to print, and, sure enough, it started warm and read on the display....... until there was another puff of smoke.

    I then tried a combination of new and old ramps boards, arduinos, and an (seemingly) infinite combination of mixes and matches trying to see if I could narrow down if it was one of the boards. After two hours of this with no luck, I happened to notice that same wire that I had just replaced had, again, melted through and shorted. I am guessing that the puff of smoke in both instances was, in fact, the wire going to the bed and not the ramp or arduino at all.

    I have just ordered a new bed from Robo, because it is about the only thing (besides the power supply) that hasn't been replaced.

    My question(s) to all of you is if any of you have experienced this problem? And, do you think I'm going down the right track?

    Any, thoughts, suggestions, or any other input would be very helpful.

    Oh, and I should also mention that I am 112% a NOOB. So, please, if you post a reply, please be kind and type slowly and clearly so that I can understand you. :)

    Thanks for your help.

    Troy

    Edit: I thought I would try to remove the cable completely and try to print on a cold bed (because I'm just that much a fan of self-inflicted pain). Now I get no reading from the extruder in degrees, and the display reads Err: MAXTEMP BED (and the cable isn't even connected)

    Just more info for your confusion. :)
     
    #1 Twofirstnames, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  2. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    Welcome.


    If your hot-end or bed is showing 0 degrees you have a break somewhere in the wire to the thermistor in the hot-end or bed. You will need to track down this break and fix it.


    If, however, your hot-end or bed is showing a crazy or higher number, you have either a short OR you have a broken thermistor. You either need to find the short or replace the thermistor. MAXTEMP BED rather implies a short in that wiring to the thermistor.
     
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  3. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    Troy...Big welcome to the forum. Getting an R1 as a gift is great. Having an issue so soon isn't. Sounds like you are on the right track though. Like Mark said, it is more than likely a short or break happening in the thermistor to the bed. Smoke might be a short. Is there anything else bare that might be rubbing against that wire or is it being pinched or anything? Just make sure when it is plugged in and you move the bed full forward and back that the wires are free to move and no issues.

    Your thought to just disconnect the bed and print cold was good. Printing PLA on a cold bed is a fair option. The heat just helps a bit. The only issue is if you remove all the bed wires, the board is setup to read a heated bed thermistor and if you sliced the model in MatterControl without setting the bed temp to 0, then it will freak out a bit. Try that with everything still unplugged for the bed and see if it will start laying plastic for you. If you are still getting an error, the break in the thermistor wire might not be allowing a suitable amount of resistance to be read on the RAMPS. That's just a guess though.

    A new bed, honestly, is not a bad thing to have around. A broken glass bed happens and since they are in stock and still a reasonable price, picking one up might save you down the road. Swapping the new one in might be a quick win. I would just be sure that it isn't from something where a wire on the RAMPS isn't plugged in wrong or not secured enough. With switching out RAMPS and such, it could happen. Although, from what you are saying, a short or bad thermistor wire is likely the issue. I'll sometimes refer R1 owners to this old video from ROBO on wiring their RAMPS. If nothing else, it can help you learn what is what on the board.

    I haven't used MatterControl (MC) in a long time. However, there are controls to manually control the R1 when plugged in with USB without sending it a print job. You can move any of the 3 axis, heat the hotend, heat the bed, extrude some plastic. If you want to test out the rest of the RAMPS to make sure things are wired correctly and working, you can heat the extruder to 200C, home all axis, raise the Z off the bed, and extrude some plastic in the air. That will make sure motors are turning the right direction and such. Your son-in-law might have shown you all that as well.

    Try out setting the bed temp to 0 and slice a basic model and see if it will print in PLA for you. If it is still throwing an error, let us know. If you get the bed in and have any questions, please ask. I think they come with the magnets installed.
     
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  4. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Hey there,
    Welcome. The guys appear to have you covered above! Keep us posted how things go, ask any and all questions
     
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  5. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    Holy Cow, guys! Thanks for all the help. I have been waiting for the bed to come in before I tried anything else (fear of frying something and more puffs of smoke).

    So, I installed the new bed, which ended up being and R1+ bed with different wiring, but I youtubed it and figured out how to get it to fit. Unfortunately I am still getting 0 degrees on both the bed and the extruder. And, I'm still getting the Err: Board MaxTemp.

    Some more to add to this mystery is that i also ordered a pouch of new thermistors because I thought it wouldnt be bad idea to replace the one in the extruder. However, the extruder I have appears to have a thermistor that can't be replaced. It appears to go inside the body of head and has no way to remove and replace. I watched a bunch of youtube videos, and looked through several posts here, but did not see anyone who had the same head that this one has.

    One weird thing that happened was that I installed the original RAMPS board the temp readings were 27 degrees on extruder and over 200 degrees (I forgot actual number) on the bed. Both were room temperature, and the boards were powered only by the printer cable and not even plugged in to AC. However, once i updated the software via Arduino, the temps went to 0 (see picture).

    Here's my thoughts:
    1) I have a suspicion that the second puff of smoke was, not only the wiring for the thermistor on the bed, but also fried the new RAMPS board that i had just installed.
    2) I don't know what to do with the whole, strange, software thing and why I am still getter maxtemp and 0 degree readings
    3) Wondering if it wouldn't be better to order the R1+ boards and arduinos and even an updated version of the printer head.

    You all have been great help. I'm hoping you can give me an idea what my next move should be.

    Thanks,
    Troy
     

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  6. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    A shorted thermistor and an open circuit thermistor do this:
    One reads zero and the other generally reads a really high temperature (the firmware will raise a MAXTEMP error).

    So -- either way you have a short or an open circuit on the thermistors (themselves) OR the wiring to the thermistor.

    Sanity check and retrace your wiring...
     
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  7. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was afraid of the new bed wiring being different. I wouldn't get a new R1+ramps setup. Do you have some pics of what you did with the wiring of the new bed. Also, you mentioned updating the firmware. What version are you using?
     
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  8. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    Sanity check.... no kidding! LOL If I had any hair (see picture to left) I wouldn't after this. :) I'll try to start tracing wires today and see if I can figure out what the heck is going on. My challenge, though, will be the silly thermistor in the extruder. I see no way of replacing it since it appears to be inside the body. I'll try to post a picture of what I am talking about later when I start "pulling my hair out". :)
     
  9. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    The hexagon that Robo uses (on the R1+) has the thermistor inside of a metal can that is inside a hole in the hotend. There is a set screw on the side or bottom of the heater block that holds that can in place. You must remove the hotend from the extruder to work on it at that level of detail.

    Look at the bottom picture here:
    http://community.robo3d.com/index.php?threads/dual-extrusion-mod-for-c2.17686/page-2#post-102107

    The Hexagon from Robo is on the left and you can see the setscrews. Left one holds in the heater core, right one holds in the thermistor can

    Sadly that pic is not from an R1+ (I don't have one of those) and all my other Robos use E3D hotends.
     
    #9 mark tomlinson, Aug 19, 2017 at 6:57 AM
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017 at 7:09 AM
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  10. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    I'll get some pictures, hopefully today. I may even try to repair the wiring on the old bed and replace the bed thermistor just to see if there is any change.

    The version I uploaded via MatterControl was, I believe, ROBO3DR1V4.

    I uploaded ROBO3DR1V3 via Arduino, but got the same result. I just noticed they have a Beta version (ROBO3D_BETA_6_10) on the website under the Old Software section that I haven't tried yet. Hopes not high on success of this one, but.... what the heck! May give that a shot to see if there is any difference. Otherwise, may start searching for previous versions and working my way back to see if anything changes. I'm baffled by the "was working" --> update --> "not working" scenario.

    Versions that I have already uploaded via Arduino include (all read 0):
    Auto_Level_7_17_8mm
    Auto_Level_7_17_516inch_
    Marlin
    ROBO3DR1V3_06112015
     
  11. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    You are confused. The Beta was the first printer Robo did, not a version of the firmware.
     
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  12. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    Do you have a an R1+ or an R1 (it is unlikely you have a beta)?

    If you do NOT know, then we need pictures. Pictures of the hotend and the place where the threaded rods go into the bed. That will identify it.
     
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  13. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    You DO NOT want to use the beta firmware in an R1 or an R1+ nor really ANY of the firmware in the wrong printer or your prints will fail. Hard. The printers each have different hardware and different Z steps/mm

    So in summary there are 3 R1 style printers:
    1) Beta
    2) R1
    3) R1+

    You need to know which one you have
    Each one had slightly different physical hardware and different Z steps/mm (at a minimum). There were other various differences (like the beta had a completely different J-Head style extruder) but the really important difference is the steps for the Z axis.
     
    #13 mark tomlinson, Aug 19, 2017 at 7:13 AM
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017 at 7:19 AM
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  14. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    Here is the firmware page and this is a break down on what is (currently) out there.
    It may change whenever Robo decides to play with it :)

    http://guide.robo3d.com/Wiki/ROBO_3D_Firmware_Release_Notes

    • R1+ Firmware V2. -> This is for the R1+ (not the beta, not the R1) and frankly has almost no changes from the original R1+ Firmware V1 :) Still it is the latest that they have available for the R1+
    • Robo R1 (Original) Firmware 3.0 -> Not sure what they mean by "original" but it is the latest version for the R1 with the 8mm threaded rods.
    • R1 Beta -> this is for the old (2013) kickstarter version. Most recent firmware. That machine had 5/16" threaded rods and a J-Head hotend
    • R1 with Auto Level and 5/16 inch Rods -> some early R1 units (with hexagon hotends) actually had 5/16" threaded rods ... rare, but a few existed.
     
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  15. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    Once you become more familiar with the firmware you will notice that there is one file that differs across all of those. One.
    CONFIGURATION.H is the key one. It has the configuration differences called out in it. The R2/C2 use an entirely newer version of the Marlin code for the firmware, but much of how it is configured is the same. @WheresWaldo has even documented how to migrate to the latest branch of Marlin (1.1x) for the R1 series of printers if you ever want or need some of the features in the newer Marlin code.

    I just keep a copy of CONFIGURATION.H in a folder tagged for each of my printers and then use the rest as a common code-base to build the firmware.
     
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  16. danzca6

    danzca6 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the breakdown Mark. It's best to know what the correct format is before uploading. I know he has the R1 but not sure if his son-in-law added the leadscrew upgrade. That version of the R1 firmware is on that page as well.

    Rule of thumb with is if it ain't broke don't update. Take a pick of your z axis leadscrew and we'll know right away what version you should start with.
     
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  17. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    Thanks, I uploaded this one using Arduino, but it didn't change the 0\0 and 0\0 on the temps.

    I will upload the correct versions. Thanks for the heads up.
     
  18. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    Thanks, I'll try to see if I can get the print head off. I'll also upload some pictures if I can.
     
  19. Twofirstnames

    Twofirstnames New Member

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    I have the R1 (not the R1+). I will try to get some pictures uploaded this evening. Been working in the yard most of the day today.
     
  20. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson Volunteer Admin
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    OK, if you know you have the R1 that is a start :)
    You 99% certainty need: Robo R1 (Original) Firmware 3.0

    (There is a very slim chance you need the R1 with Auto Level and 5/16 inch Rods, only a few older R1 printers were in this situation)
     
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