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X and Y Ringing on prints - possible solutions

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by jwmueller, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Warp Norman

    Warp Norman Member

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    I sent my R2 back yesterday. Bent rods and other poor quality build issues.

    I tried everything I could think of and everything Jerry Grauman told me to try. Jerry doesn't feel the rods were causing the effect that I was getting (looked like vertical ringing about every 1mm and had a very tactile feel to it). He felt since 8mm rods equal 25.13mm revolution, it wouldn't cause 1mm spaced artifacts. I feel it did, since all the rods are bent, fighting each other and causing binding. What else could it be? Maybe a bad board? Bad stepper motors? I pulled the top off and disconnected the motors to see if there was binding. There was a pulsating like binding. Jerry said it wasn't the bent rods that were causing the binding. Quote from his email,

    "The pulleys that are attached to the small vertical belts in each back corner can rub on a bearing that is in the wall of the chassis/body of the printer. Can you please move each one (there are 2) of these pulleys slightly away from the wall and put a dab of lube between the bearing and the pulley? I think you will see really smooth movement after that. "

    I did what he mentioned, but it wasn't easy because they stripped out so many grub screws in the pulleys. It didn't stop the binding I was feeling. I also asked customer service for replacement grub screws and they said they don't stock them and I should get them from McMaster Carr. LOL, not a big deal but not professional.

    Another build issue I noticed,
    When I pulled the stepper motors, they are screwed through a slotted key hole. When they over-tightened them, they buried the head of the screw halfway through the plastic slot. It deformed the plastic and at least one hole had a crack. The plastic was so deformed there was no longer a slot. Now I know they shouldn't have over-tightened them, but maybe they should have used a metal back up plate for that area or even washers for better distribution.

    Even though my machine had a broken Z limit switch, I don't believe it was from carrier handling. My box had no visual damage and the missing limit switch lever was nowhere to be found. It was not in that machine when packed. I unpacked in a confined area and it should have stayed in the compartment with the electronics. Also, if handling bent those 8mm rods, I think there would have been apparent damage to the box. My suspicion is poor source of parts or during installation.

    So for replacement, I requested it at least 5 times. July 12, 14, 17, 19, 26th. Those requests went to Customer support, Jerry, Coby and Braydon. Not once did anybody answer my request for replacement until I posted a public review where I knew they would see it.

    I would say there are more than 35 emails back and forth about this with plenty of pictures to show them. I have plenty of experience with 3D printing. Multiple materials on multiple machines.

    When I asked for a replacement power supply due to the grumbling fan that sounded like it was ready to die, they said no it'll be fine. Public post to kickstarter and then that was fixed.

    I asked for replacement rods weeks ago, still nothing. We don't have them in yet. Would be over a month to receive them since first request. Doesn't matter now, machine is finally being replaced.

    Told to get my own screws, No to power supply replacement, no response for replacement or repair? I had to go public? And at no time was I disrespectful.

    I still believe in the R2, I still have faith that Robo can make this right. But so far my experience with customer service and the R2 has not been a positive one.
    Sorry for a long post.
     
  2. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    They struggled with the first printer post kickstarter and trust me when I say that as bad as this is, it is miles better :)
    It is still not good and they need to get on top of this (and quickly).

    My box had no appreciable damage, but one rod was knocked completely out of the steel frame. You could see where the press-fit was knocked out and it popped loose*. Go figure. I fixed mine by getting it back in place and encouraging it to stay with some glue :)
    Not really acceptable, but it was certainly damaged in transit.


    *pictures in my unboxing thread
     
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  3. Ed Ferguson

    Ed Ferguson Active Member

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    "... I wonder if they just sourced some cheap rods. Or rough handling at the factory."

    I'm always concerned about how much pressure it takes to release the filament. Because the lever arm spring is so strong, I feel like I'm going to bend rods every time I change filament. And yes, I support the extruder underneath with one hand while pressing the lever with the other. You can easily see the 6mm rods bending in the animated gif in the Robo doc here:
    http://docs.robo3d.com/en/latest/R2/getting started/index.html#loading-filament

    filament lever.jpg
     
    #83 Ed Ferguson, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  4. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    I admit I do not "get" the reasoning behind 6mm versus 8mm rods. That is a puzzle.
     
  5. Ed Ferguson

    Ed Ferguson Active Member

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    Mark - I wonder if there is enough "meat" around the extruder bearings and belt clips to bore out the plastic for 8mm bearings & rods?

    I have a cnc mill, but not brave enough at this point to go into that type of mod :) However, would like to do a Misumi rod replacement per jwmueller.
     
    #85 Ed Ferguson, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  6. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    You could not use the same bearings although the connections that the rods mount to would perhaps be OK (I am only looking at the C2 frame here).
     
  7. Warp Norman

    Warp Norman Member

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    I don't like pushing on the lever hard either. I dont use it. I let the motor do all the work. Just takes a bit longer. My Creator Pro has Flexion extruders that don't have levers. I've just gotten used to it.

    When they get me a new machine, I wont be real surprised to find bent rods. I will replace them with Mitsumi like Mr. Mueller. Has anybody here gone the Igus route for bushings or bearings? http://www.igus.com/wpck/6410/plastic_bushings
     
  8. mark tomlinson

    mark tomlinson ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
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    Our delta uses a very similar direct extruder, but the mounting is far different so pressure on that bar does not translate into pressure on anything that can bend or move. This is just a weakness in that design.. (6mm rods, really?). There are alternative direct extruders that would probably be less of an issue. I'd hate to have a weaker spring although (within reason) that might work too.

    Time will tell if it is a real problem or just a perceived one :)
     
  9. WheresWaldo

    WheresWaldo Volunteer ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
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    @Warp Norman It is really too bad you had to go through all of that. There are definitely issues with the R2 and I think you are either going to see some not so flattering public reviews. When a company relies on kickstarters for product launches whether intentional or not you are the beta testers. Also it is very hard for management to admit or see that their baby is not as pretty as they think it is. You will get a lot of push back when issues arise.

    Having to source your own repair parts, particularly if under warranty should be a big red flag. I am glad you got past that and hopefully you will get an R2 that has at the very least been tested before they ship it back to you.

    The R2 has a great design aesthetic and they are trying to make it as user friendly as possible. As much as I rail against RoboOS I still think they have done quite a job to make the printer novice proof. Unfortunately the more you wall off the less there is to do to fix issues when they arise so you are stuck in a seemingly endless chain of emails until they do what they really needed to do in the first place and just replace the printer.
     
  10. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    Zortrax does the same but you have a load/unload option on the lcd. No pressure on the rods. Id recommend heating up and retracting until the filament is free. Id load the same way. Its very easy to tweak a 6mm rod, even when there are 2 for supports.
     
  11. Seamus

    Seamus Member

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    Also, if you do decide to use the idler-release lever and press against the spring tension, doing so with the head in the corner instead of the middle of its travel will put the pressure closer to the mounting point, and be less likely to bend the rods.
     
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  12. Warp Norman

    Warp Norman Member

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    I arranged to send my R2 back for replacement. I mailed mine out Friday. In the meantime, I received a package today. I originally ordered replacement rods. They sent me One rod. And yes it is bent. That confirms to me they are sourcing inferior rods.
     
  13. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    @Warp Norman what kind of packaging did it arrive it? I've ordered very nice rods that show up in an envelope that just dont hack it. Hopefully they shipped it well packaged in a tube?
     
  14. Warp Norman

    Warp Norman Member

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    Hi
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    at least the packaging is good then ! :D
     
  16. jwmueller

    jwmueller Active Member

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    My Misumi rods came in a huge box with around 7# of bubble wrap.

    20170811_134228.jpg

    In this picture, see if you can spot the difference.


    20170811_134255.jpg

    Red is first PETG print on new rods, searching for best temps (so far really different than my other machines on temps).
     
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  17. jwmueller

    jwmueller Active Member

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    I have resorted to just feeding in the filament, if I need to use the spring I hold the rods with a piece of 4X4 wood. /partial sarcasm ;)

    If the filament does not want to come out, I just feed it forward first to prevent that bulb it will form if it is too cold.

    One odd thing I have found, and I need to look at this closer is the 6mm rods on the X-axis get really hot when your prints are smaller. Along with the magnetic robo plate on the front.
     
  18. Geof

    Geof Volunteer Moderator
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    I think that magentic plate is in just a perfect spot to stop or hinder your cold end cooling fan. The rods should NOT be hot. I'd check to ensure that fan is working full force and if the rods are getting hot I'd imagine they need some lubricant (but I'd think you'd notice a sound before a heat up from friction)
     
  19. Warp Norman

    Warp Norman Member

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    Received my new replacement R2 today. Just started a test print. Will update when it's done. I was told that this machine would be tested before it was sent out to make sure it prints with no ringing type lines. I can only hope. I can tell you that the rods are bent much worse than the first one so my expectations are reserved. I can only hope.
     
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  20. jwmueller

    jwmueller Active Member

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    Post pictures, call Jerry or Rob as they have my before and after rod replacement pictures.
     

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